Gateway Park

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
mulad
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Re: Gateway Park

Postby mulad » December 8th, 2012, 7:15 am

Diesel engines in general have been getting cleaner because of federal mandates, plus state requirements such as those put out by the California Air Resources Board (CARB), which have been copied in several other states. I drive a 2006 VW Jetta TDI, which was the last of the "dirty diesels" for the passenger car market. The EPA calls it a "Tier II Bin 10" car, but the dirtiest two "bins" of the time (Bin 9 and Bin 10) were eliminated at the end of 2006. It wasn't available in California or other CARB states at the time, since their most lax level ("LEV II", for "low-emission vehicle") was the equivalent of Tier II Bin 5. You could still sell those cars for a while afterward in non-CARB states, but only if they'd been manufactured prior to January 1, 2007, so the diesel Jetta was unavailable for a year or so until a new version was developed with a fancier exhaust aftertreatment system.

Federal mandates had also required refiners to churn out ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel (ULSD), which reduced the sulfur content in the fuel from 500 ppm down to 15 ppm, which helps prevent more advanced catalytic converters from getting fouled up as they do their thing. Minnesota also mandated a 2% biodiesel blend around the same time (since increased to 5%).

Anyway, manufacturers ended up targeting the CARB maximum of LEV II/Tier II Bin 5. Most diesels now need to have 3-way catalytic converters (older diesels only have 2-way cats) plus a "selective catalytic reduction" (SCR) system which injects a urea mixture (AdBlue) into the exhaust stream (the urea gets converted into ammonia in the exhaust system, and the ammonia reacts with various nasties like oxides of nitrogen to clean them up). Diesels also have particulate filters to catch granules of soot coming out of the engine. The engine periodically runs "hot" to burn the particles off of the filter, which is why some buses have odd triangle-shaped exhaust tips (somehow this allows cooler outside air to mix with the hot exhaust -- I'm not quite sure why that's necessary, but there might be some concerns about worker safety or something).

I'm not exactly sure when the heavy-duty diesel market began requiring all of that stuff, but my vague recollection is that it was 2 or 3 years after the light-duty market (most cars, SUVs, and pickup trucks are light-duty vehicles -- pickups marketed as "heavy-duty" are typically classified as medium-duty by the EPA).

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Re: Gateway Park

Postby mplsjaromir » December 8th, 2012, 9:00 am

It crazy how new VW use piss (urea) in their cars to meet emission standards.

mulad
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Re: Gateway Park

Postby mulad » December 8th, 2012, 6:37 pm

:roll:

...and Mercedes, and BMW, and Ford, and Freightliner, and New Flyer, and...

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Le Sueur
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Re: Gateway Park

Postby Le Sueur » December 8th, 2012, 7:26 pm

Caterpillar, Cummins, Deere, Detroit Diesel, Deutz, Isuzu, Komatsu and others got the ball rolling for cleaner heavy-duty engines in 1996. Cat started building diesels with ACERT(Urea) Technology in 2003 and they really hit the market I'm closest to (Agriculture) in 2007/2008. (Mandated to phase in 2008-15.
We have two MT655D Cat units with TierIV urea type engines in them.

I did a little reading and this: http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/nonroad.php
Has some nice background and clearly presented data to give on the matter of clearer diesel engines.
(They list charts of all the reductions of various pollutants, etc)

May seem a little off topic, but if a park gets built here, I don't think anyone would be using it if FISHMANPET and others were 'passing out' from a lack of clean air. Also being that things like excavators and bulldozers have cleaner engines in them means hard core UrbanMSP followers can watch constructions sites all day without fear of having to tell their Father's, "I think I have the Black Lung Pop"."

And to give a smart@$$ answer to the "piss' comment,
Best Answer - Chosen by Voters
Urea is a component of urine, but urine has many other things in it like water, other salts, bacteria, and waste products
After it reacts in the engine the urea comes out your tailpipe as ammonia from my understanding.

mulad
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Re: Gateway Park

Postby mulad » December 8th, 2012, 8:35 pm

Thanks for that info, Le Sueur.

Anyway, to try and fully get back to the point -- I wouldn't worry that much about the tailpipe emissions from buses if there's a layover point somewhere, since things are vastly improved from where they were even a few years ago, and vehicles are likely to keep getting cleaner. I'd be more concerned about noise issues at this point, and even that will go away once we sort out how to have fully-electric buses that go through a quick charge at the beginning/end of a route or at several points along a route.

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Re: Gateway Park

Postby min-chi-cbus » December 9th, 2012, 12:49 pm

FISHMANPET wrote:
Back in 2005 I was on Nicollet mall during afternoon rush hour, and once I got back to my dorm I had to lay down because I was nauseous from all the fumes. Now I think MetroTransit only runs the newer buses that give off a lot fewer fumes, and I think they emphasize hybrid buses as well. I'm not sure if bus fumes are as much of a problem now as they used to be.
That's a good point -- my story took place in the early 2000's, and technology has changed quite a bit since then.


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woofner
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Re: Gateway Park

Postby woofner » March 5th, 2013, 4:30 pm

Lookit the cyclists gleefully riding in the streetcar tracks! This must make a Portland worshiper erupt in the crotchal zone.
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Re: Gateway Park

Postby mamundsen » March 5th, 2013, 4:45 pm

So these are part of the Hennepin redo???

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1134

The last one looks as if it's the new one that was just released.

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Re: Gateway Park

Postby seanrichardryan » March 5th, 2013, 5:15 pm

redisciple wrote:Lookit the cyclists gleefully riding in the streetcar tracks! This must make a Portland worshiper erupt in the crotchal zone.
Hahahahaha. Cough. HahajHAHh
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Re: Gateway Park

Postby mplser » March 5th, 2013, 7:05 pm

the one cyclist doesn't seem to be dressed for the weather, though lol

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booboo
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Re: Gateway Park

Postby booboo » March 7th, 2013, 9:44 pm

I love how aspirational all these all are. From the streetcars and Bentley driving down Hennepin to Yachts on the Mississippi, Minneapolis looks pretty good!

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Nathan
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Re: Gateway Park

Postby Nathan » October 1st, 2013, 12:51 pm

The question was posed in the Marq4 thread about the ability to keep this block crime free if it were to be turned into a park... (funding and maintenance aside) I think, personally, that this is a pretty Minneapolis 1995 question to ask. By the time a park here is completed there will be Thousands of new residents in the area, frequenting the area, and viewing from their shiny new buildings etc etc... Never before will so many people (not living in flop houses) be living in this area as there will be in the next few years. The library right now is essentially surrounded by nothing, its a public space, and feels anonymous. You put a big office building to the east and a bunch of Residential on all the empty blocks around, and it's going to be hard for this crime to "hide." Just a thought. I think that it would be a huge amenity and hopefully help connect DT to the river and the outdoors.

In regards to if this block should be developed by a developer because the rents are high... Personally I'd rather see a lot of other parts of DT become as nice as Nicollet mall. Keeping this area at capacity forces some good things to happen in other zones, no?

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Re: Gateway Park

Postby Minneboy » October 1st, 2013, 1:29 pm

fotoapparatic wrote:The question was posed in the Marq4 thread about the ability to keep this block crime free if it were to be turned into a park... (funding and maintenance aside) I think, personally, that this is a pretty Minneapolis 1995 question to ask. By the time a park here is completed there will be Thousands of new residents in the area, frequenting the area, and viewing from their shiny new buildings etc etc... Never before will so many people (not living in flop houses) be living in this area as there will be in the next few years. The library right now is essentially surrounded by nothing, its a public space, and feels anonymous. You put a big office building to the east and a bunch of Residential on all the empty blocks around, and it's going to be hard for this crime to "hide." Just a thought. I think that it would be a huge amenity and hopefully help connect DT to the river and the outdoors.

In regards to if this block should be developed by a developer because the rents are high... Personally I'd rather see a lot of other parts of DT become as nice as Nicollet mall. Keeping this area at capacity forces some good things to happen in other zones, no?
I hear you. I get a little tired of hearing the whole crime thing too every time someone brings up a park or plaza downtown. Be wise, be safe and don't be drunk.

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Re: Gateway Park

Postby John » October 2nd, 2013, 12:10 am

Well, I lived through the summer of 2012 across the street from Peavey Plaza with all its crime problems , in addition to watching the city's unbelievable neglect of the plaza's maintenance for years and years. Maybe I'm a little jaded. I do agree there should be a nice wide green space to connect Nicollet Mall to Hennepin and the river, but it doesn't have to be a full block. We're already getting a huge park by the stadium, a renovated Nicollet Mall, a park in the North Loop, the LRT Interchange, not to mention the great riverfront park system downtown and Gold Medal Park that already exist. I guess I wonder sometimes if yet another large park next to Nicollet Mall is really necessary or sustainable?

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Re: Gateway Park

Postby mulad » October 2nd, 2013, 12:20 am

I was reminded of the problems with the old attempts at Gateway Park when I read this a while back:

http://thomaslowrysghost.tumblr.com/pos ... so-hard-to
Ever wonder why it’s so hard to get a mixed drink south of Lake Street in Minneapolis? We can thank the historic “patrol limits,” which were incorporated into the city charter in the 1880s. The ordinance required bars and liquor stores to be concentrated in select parts of town, with the rationale that police could more easily control liquor-fueled crime if all of these types of businesses were in one place. [...]

Minneboy
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Re: Gateway Park

Postby Minneboy » October 2nd, 2013, 7:58 am

mulad wrote:I was reminded of the problems with the old attempts at Gateway Park when I read this a while back:

http://thomaslowrysghost.tumblr.com/pos ... so-hard-to
Ever wonder why it’s so hard to get a mixed drink south of Lake Street in Minneapolis? We can thank the historic “patrol limits,” which were incorporated into the city charter in the 1880s. The ordinance required bars and liquor stores to be concentrated in select parts of town, with the rationale that police could more easily control liquor-fueled crime if all of these types of businesses were in one place. [...]
wow, interesting. Never knew about that.

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Re: Gateway Park

Postby seanrichardryan » October 2nd, 2013, 8:17 am

The liquor patrol limits were pretty big; that ordinance in itself cannot be blamed for the demise of Gateway park. Likely the concentration of cheap hotels, railyards, temp mill jobs and the great depression played a greater role. Gateway park was an urban renewal project, like Pioneer Square, the Farmer's Market, Holman Field etc; and as such, it failed miserably.
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min-chi-cbus
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Re: Gateway Park

Postby min-chi-cbus » October 2nd, 2013, 9:32 am

Minneboy wrote:
mulad wrote:I was reminded of the problems with the old attempts at Gateway Park when I read this a while back:

http://thomaslowrysghost.tumblr.com/pos ... so-hard-to
Ever wonder why it’s so hard to get a mixed drink south of Lake Street in Minneapolis? We can thank the historic “patrol limits,” which were incorporated into the city charter in the 1880s. The ordinance required bars and liquor stores to be concentrated in select parts of town, with the rationale that police could more easily control liquor-fueled crime if all of these types of businesses were in one place. [...]
wow, interesting. Never knew about that.
They said the same thing about HUD housing and the Projects.


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