DTE: Wells Fargo, Radisson Red, Edition Apts & Millwright Building

[MNdible]

Why is this your assumption?

1. The Vikings Stadium legislation required that a large amount of VIP parking be required. I don’t agree with this, but those are the NFL’s rules and the state decided it wanted to play ball. The time for this particular debate was about a year ago.
2. A major new office development in this area will generate some parking demand. Clearly less than if it were to be built anywhere else in the state of Minnesota, but real demand nonetheless.

Because it has been legislated.

[min-chi-cbus]

No offense but I kind of think both statements above are semantics. Dallas' tallest building is 921 feet. Houston's is 1002 feet. I find it annoying that I have to state the exact height in order to get my point across.

As for the % transit share for Wells Fargo, I HIGHLY doubt it's 40% currently in downtown. Just based on my own experience as a temporary employee there, very few people I met did not drive a car to work (annecdotal, I know, but I don't see any company-by-company breakdown for ridership). My POINT though was that having a new location near the metrodome station wouldn't drastically change the ridership patterns of its employees, especially with such a (fairly) limited regional LRT network and the distribution of employees' homes.

Maybe next time I'll just say "really tall buildings" and "insignificant ridership changes" instead of throwing numbers out of my ass (because honestly, I didn't research those figures ahead of time because it doesn't diminish my point).

[min-chi-cbus]

parking WILL be a part of this project and will be required in similar ratios as they would in suburban locales.

Why is this your assumption?

Before jumping to conclusions, I would think the right way to approach the issue is to ask (1) How many new employees will commute to this location by automobile? and (2) does the existing infrastructure possess the capacity to absorb the increased demand for parking (before necessitating the construction of new facilities)?

I'm not just blathering on about how parking is bad. There seemed to be a rather nonchalant attitude towards new parking on this thread. It struck me as odd, since these monstrous structures are the antithesis of good urbanism.

Because I have been a part of these analyses before and it's one of the few things that employees simply have little tolerance for (not enough parking, that is). Companies don't ALWAYS provide enough spaces but they usually offer the shuttle option I referenced in lieu of private parking. I'm talking about Fortune 500 companies, btw, not EVERY SINGLE company on planet Earth.

[mattaudio]

Of course I wouldn't speak to any particular company that's noted in this thread, but I do want to share some general observations
- The reason why so many people park right now is because it is "free" to the employee. If parking was no longer subsidized, non-car mode shares would rise significantly.
- Even at other "corporate campuses" in Mpls city limits, I wish there was a way to credit employees $1 or 2 a day, then charge that amount for parking. Thus, by not parking in the ramp, someone could save a couple bucks a day. This would be sort of a stepping stone for employees to understand there's no such thing as free parking, but it wouldn't directly hit employees up front. I know I'd be more inclined to bike to work frequently if it cost me to enter the parking ramp at my office, whereas today it is free.

[VAStationDude]

The sad fact remains that 95%+ of its employees do not commute to downtown via mass transit, so they WILL need a place to park their cars.

The non-automobile mode share for downtown commuters is much higher than 5%. I can't find a link right now in the bathroom but don't like a third of downtown commuters already take transit? Plus some bikers and some walkers?

According to this MPR report from 2010 downtown Minneapolis transit modeshare is 40%. http://minnesota.publicradio.org/displa ... ridership/ Car pooling, walking and biking also have significant modeshare. I believe less than 1/2 of downtown workers drive alone to their jobs compared to >90% in suburban areas.

I'm not going to spend a half hour to find a source but I know I've read Wells Fargo has been recognized for having a large percentage of their Minneapolis employees commuting by transit.

This discussion is getting silly. The ideal scenario, imo, is a large Wells Fargo corporate campus with a small parking component and larger shared parking with the new football stadium.

[min-chi-cbus]

The non-automobile mode share for downtown commuters is much higher than 5%. I can't find a link right now in the bathroom but don't like a third of downtown commuters already take transit? Plus some bikers and some walkers?

Yes, I was going to note the same thing. I bet that you'd be blown away by the actual percentages of these employees who are already using transit. And remember, these are mostly back-office employees in the proposed facility. We're not talking about the high paid banker driving his BMW in from Wayzata.

I still maintain that by locating their campus HQ near the metrodome station they won't be able to provide mass transit access to a substantially higher mode share......at least not LRT. The mode share increase would have more to do with the consolidation downtown than where downtown the buildings/campus was located. So what I'm saying is that I don't see Wells Fargo providing fewer spaces per employee than it currently does at its current downtown HQ just because of the accessibility to LRT and the Metrodome station.

You wanted us to expand beyond "parking: good or bad?", so I'm throwing in my $0.02 here.

P.S. I admittedly was WAY off on the 5% ridership estimate.....let's move on though.

[min-chi-cbus]

Of course I wouldn't speak to any particular company that's noted in this thread, but I do want to share some general observations
- The reason why so many people park right now is because it is "free" to the employee. If parking was no longer subsidized, non-car mode shares would rise significantly.
- Even at other "corporate campuses" in Mpls city limits, I wish there was a way to credit employees $1 or 2 a day, then charge that amount for parking. Thus, by not parking in the ramp, someone could save a couple bucks a day. This would be sort of a stepping stone for employees to understand there's no such thing as free parking, but it wouldn't directly hit employees up front. I know I'd be more inclined to bike to work frequently if it cost me to enter the parking ramp at my office, whereas today it is free.

Who gets free parking? Everybody I know who works downtown has to pay, which is the main reason why transit ridership is as high as it is. Granted, I don't swing with a lot of CEO's and VP's, whom I'm sure do get free parking...

It's subsidized but hardly free.

[mattaudio]

The post talked about corporate campuses within city limits, not necessarily downtown... I was referring to the type of campus that I am familiar with and which may have an impact on the discussion of this thread, without divulging more.

Also I want to help clarify the differing uses between a CBD HQ space and a CBD or close-in backoffice space.

[min-chi-cbus]

The post talked about corporate campuses within city limits, not necessarily downtown... I was referring to the type of campus that I am familiar with and which may have an impact on the discussion of this thread, without divulging more.

Also I want to help clarify the differing uses between a CBD HQ space and a CBD or close-in backoffice space.

Oh I see.....

[woofner]

Redisciple noted that he wasn't thrilled about a two block long skyway in this part of town, and I tend to agree, but if that's the cost to get better use out of the public's investment in structured parking and to spur a significant new development project, then I'd probably live with it.

When I wrote that I was thinking that the skyway would go through the plaza next to the Metrodome station for some reason. If it were to go north of and parellel to 4th St I wouldn't have a problem with it.

What about this proposal precludes Zygi from building his ramp too? Seems likely to me that Zygi's going to do whatever he wants and only cares about this proposal to the extent that it will compete with his. And it's hard to argue that Zygi doesn't have the ideal location for stadium parking, no matter how many spaces are built a couple blocks away.

[mattaudio]

Well then we better make it harder for him to build a ramp, unless it follows strict guidelines to protect the value of adjacent land.

[go4guy]

I work at the current WF Home Mortgage HQ, and we have a HUGE parking issue. We have had valet for 3 years now because there are not nearly enough parking spaces. And it is so bad now that we also rent spaces at Calhoun Square and have a shuttle running back and forth. I am sure parking is on their mind. But doesnt this site already have an underground ramp under the station?

[Didier]

As of right now, there's probably not a lot of demand for a full, large-scale parking structure near the Metrodome except on a handful of Sundays each year.

[Nathan]

Because I like to fantasize and imagine what things might look like (just for giggles), I did my best to scale in 50' height intervals to show how dramatically buildings would affect the skyline at different heights. So much heavy conversation when so much is still up in the air!

[trkaiser]

That's really cool - thanks for doing that!

[DFPegg]

I took these shots today from the 24th floor at Government Center, which is the Hennepin Law Library. (A great resource to know about in any case.)

Sorry for the dreary day and low quality pictures, but I thought these images may add to the debate on the site.

Once construction begins this will be a perfect venue for following up on progress.

[MNdible]

What about this proposal precludes Zygi from building his ramp too? Seems likely to me that Zygi's going to do whatever he wants and only cares about this proposal to the extent that it will compete with his. And it's hard to argue that Zygi doesn't have the ideal location for stadium parking, no matter how many spaces are built a couple blocks away.

My understanding is that the stadium commission is obligated by legislation to build the parking ramps for Zygi -- he's not building them himself. So, to the extent that parking at this location meets the intent of the legislation, I'm not sure there's much he could do about it.

But let's say that he decides that these ramp locations aren't up to snuff -- what's in it for him? A couple things come to mind. First, he could agree to go "halfsies" on these ramps with Ryan, saving a chunk of money that the stadium commission could then spend on other stuff that he wants (like a retractable roof or nacho cheese fountains in the Ultra-NFL Gameday Experience Logia). In addition, since Zygi already owns the land that the ramps were originally going to be built on, he could potentially keep those lots for himself to develop something more lucrative than parking ramps.

Let's remember -- the surface lots around the Metrodome were profitable because they were getting used by the Twins, Gophers, and Vikings, 100 days a year for high-buck event parking. Now, you're going to try to finance expensive structured parking based on only 10 events a year. I don't think it works; that is, I think that Zygi knows the stadium ramps wouldn't be profitable if they had to pay their own capital costs.

[m b p]

Because I like to fantasize and imagine what things might look like (just for giggles), I did my best to scale in 50' height intervals to show how dramatically buildings would affect the skyline at different heights. So much heavy conversation when so much is still up in the air!

I took 5 minutes to create a 700 ft model tower in google sketchup. I then inserted the model into google earth. It is free and very easy to do... if anyone wants. It's a fun way to pretend... or look forward to the future... or whatever.

[mulad]

I work at the current WF Home Mortgage HQ, and we have a HUGE parking issue. We have had valet for 3 years now because there are not nearly enough parking spaces. And it is so bad now that we also rent spaces at Calhoun Square and have a shuttle running back and forth. I am sure parking is on their mind. But doesnt this site already have an underground ramp under the station?

Yes, there's a public ramp right under the Metrodome station. Some (most?) of the surface lots on Strib-owned land are currently private.

[min-chi-cbus]

Because I like to fantasize and imagine what things might look like (just for giggles), I did my best to scale in 50' height intervals to show how dramatically buildings would affect the skyline at different heights. So much heavy conversation when so much is still up in the air!

I took 5 minutes to create a 700 ft model tower in google sketchup. I then inserted the model into google earth. It is free and very easy to do... if anyone wants. It's a fun way to pretend... or look forward to the future... or whatever.

Do we expect a 700 footer? Based on all of this "campus" talk I keep envisioning 2-4 15 to 25 story buildings, otherwise they wouldn't purchase 2 blocks (if that's in fact what they end up doing). That's partly why I hope the Hennepin & 10th St site gets chosen for Wellls, but there are other risidual benefits of Wells locating to DTE and potentially kick-starting the expansion of downtown in that direction.