DTE: Wells Fargo, Radisson Red, Edition Apts & Millwright Building

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seanrichardryan
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Re: Star Tribune Blocks

Postby seanrichardryan » November 22nd, 2013, 5:47 pm

Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

Wedgeguy
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Re: Star Tribune Blocks

Postby Wedgeguy » November 22nd, 2013, 9:50 pm


There you have the best take on why we don't tear this down. Ryan, Wells Fargo, The city will not want to be compared to the Chairman of General Mills that had the Metropolitan Building torn down because he thought it was an eye sore. Wells Fargo will have the threat of boycotts. Their name will be dragged into the news in not too favorable of light. Would be a PR nightmare for Ryan with protests of them at the new stadium. City council people would have lots of explaining to do when the building is down and we have that wind swept park that is rarely use properly and has no connection to the rest of the city. The park will be surrounded by monoliths on all side. The jail, 2 huge slab walled towers, the juvenile jail, the Armory, and then the new dome. Not a lot to draw people into it 350 days a year except for the idiots who will try and park in it to tailgate those other 6-8.

Preservations will not let this building go quietly and if Wells and Ryan try and stiff arm, they should been be ready for the back lash. You think the Wilk's have a bad public perception , you get one of the best building in the area tore down . They will have a public relations nightmare. Preservationist fought for Peavey Plaza, they will not roll over for a landing strip for the Wilks brothers. Really I should give the Wilks a break. This will fall more in the lap of the Ryan's, as they are the ones threating to not do the towers unless they get their way! Wells Fargo too will get the blow back as they are the supposed tenant that says they will walk if their don't get their wind swept park.
As ugly as some of you think this building is, you will have a fight on your hands if you try and tear it down. It and the Amory compliment each other across 5th and the park that would still be developed on the one block.. We already have one wind swept plaza at the other end of town that is only really used during some 40 + baseball games. Viking's have 8 a year. I could keep making points, but I've hit the main ones. This will not go away without a bloody PR fight for the parties.
This building has history, and there are a lot of things that the building can be rehabbed for. When you have it gone, and the park is a bust, you will have your name forever tied to the debacle. My Very Strong Opinion.

VAStationDude
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Re: Star Tribune Blocks

Postby VAStationDude » November 22nd, 2013, 10:43 pm

Who is Wilk? not every old building in Minneapolis is the Metropolitan Center?

Wedgeguy
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Re: Star Tribune Blocks

Postby Wedgeguy » November 22nd, 2013, 11:23 pm

VAStationDude wrote:Who is Wilk? not every old building in Minneapolis is the Metropolitan Center?
Wilks, the Vikings owner. This is not a corner pub. This is a building with a district architectural style that this city had few examples of. This is a building that has significance to or city history , just like the mills up Portand. You show me any MPLS park that can compare to Mears or Rice parks in St. Paul and I'll give you some credit. Chain of Lakes does not count. This needs t be hemmed in by 4 city streets. This need to be used for more than a dog potty ground!

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Re: Star Tribune Blocks

Postby Silophant » November 23rd, 2013, 12:08 am

Wilf, possibly? I think you're vastly overestimating how important this building is.

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Re: Star Tribune Blocks

Postby PhilmerPhil » November 23rd, 2013, 12:53 am

Woofner, I think another user name change is due.

BigIdeasGuy
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Re: Star Tribune Blocks

Postby BigIdeasGuy » November 23rd, 2013, 9:49 am

Wedgeguy's post is the ultimate Minnesota can't have nice new things. There is always a reason not to do something you rattled off a bunch of them. PR nightmare, next Metropolitan Building, windswept park, won't be properly used, no connection to the rest of the city, surrounded by monoliths on all sides, only draw idiots 6-8 times a years. (By the way the Vikings play 8 regular season home games a year plus 2 preseason and the once very rare, almost legendary home playoff game) I'm sure you could keep listing them for about three days and while you do raise some valid concerns that do need to be addressed the reason to do this and tear down the Star Tribune building is quite simple. Because we want to have nice new things in downtown Minneapolis and all across our city.

And if that isn't a good enough reason we might as well just admit that the only place we can grow as a metro area is in the exburbs. If that's isn't a good enough reason we should honestly quit trying to pretend that downtown Minneapolis will ever grow into what we all hope it can grow in to being. If that isn't a good enough reason we should stop the construction of the new Vikings Stadium on the Dome site and move it to Arden Hills. Simple as that.

Not to mention the fact we have a private company that wants to invest literally $100's of millions of dollars and bring 6000 employees and 1000 residents to a currently dead area of Downtown. That sounds like a HUGE win to me. This is exactly the type of investment we wanted to have happen with the new Vikings Stadium. Or how about the fact the public is getting a two block park out of this deal. Isn't that what we wanted? But now that opportunity and it's literally right in front of us but it isn't quite good enough and we can't do it.

By the way I'm kind of surprised the historic preservationist aren't trying to save the Dome. Because undoubtably the Twins, Gophers, and Vikings are all as large as part of our culture as the Star Tribune. And I would argue what actually went on in the Dome is more historic and important than what actually went on in the Star Tribune building. Now architecturally it isn't even close. For the record I'm a fan of the arch idea.

uptown067
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Re: Star Tribune Blocks

Postby uptown067 » November 23rd, 2013, 10:32 am

You know, I actually agree with some of the preservationists above.

In fact, lets take it one step further, we need to preserve all of the parking lots in Downtown East! These are architecturially significant and represent a great period of time in Minneapolis' history! These lots reflect Minneapolis' response to the rise of automobiles. Very, very important!

These parking lots are at risk of going extinct. With all the development that's going on in the North Loop there's only some many examples of this innovative use of land left. And before you naysayers start brining up other examples across the city, those don't even compare to the ones in DT East. Have you seen the parking lot at whole foods near lake Calhoun! What with all its trees and properly stripped spots, its down right offensive to compare the two!

These lots represent the minimilist approach to parking and must be preserved at all costs!

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Re: Star Tribune Blocks

Postby MplsSteve » November 23rd, 2013, 10:45 am

I don't think this is a case of not wanting to have nice new things (as if new always equals nice). I think what people here are saying is let's think this out carefully and not do something that we'll later regret. The fact is that when developers have been challenged by pesky preservationsists in the past, the end results have been much better. For example, saving the State Theater and encorporating it into the La Salle Plaza development. By contrast, when developers have been given a blank slate, more often then not, we have ended up with disasters like Block E.

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Re: Star Tribune Blocks

Postby Wedgeguy » November 23rd, 2013, 10:54 am

If Wells Fargo pulls out because a historic 4 story building will block 4 floor of one of it towers. Then it says a lot of the culture of Wells Fargo. Which by the way had had more than a few bruises to they name due to the housing scandals and how they have posted transactions so they can get fees out of less well off clients.

I stand by my PR nightmare. Wells does not need anymore bad press. The preservationist will not sit this one out either.

I stand corrected on the Wilfs. I must have had John Wilks Booth on the brain. Thanks for the correction. It was late.

Steve, you said everything that I'm thinking with that last statement. We have had much better luck with working in preservation than when we go with the bomb and wipe out what makes this better city. LaSalle Plaza is a great example of what happens when we work to preserve what makes this city unique and still get the commerce we need.
Uptown67 I'll be watching you from a car as you fight to preserve those historic parking lots for us to savor for the future!! LOL

BigIdeasGuy
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Re: Star Tribune Blocks

Postby BigIdeasGuy » November 23rd, 2013, 11:15 am

Wedgeguy wrote:If Wells Fargo pulls out because a historic 4 story building will block 4 floor of one of it towers. Then it says a lot of the culture of Wells Fargo. Which by the way had had more than a few bruises to they name due to the housing scandals and how they have posted transactions so they can get fees out of less well off clients.
So if Wells Fargo does pull out over and the entire thing falls apart would you be okay with that meaning that we are left with a sea of parking lots you would be okay with that? Because at this point that looks like it's our only two options either the Star Tribune building goes and the development goes forward or the Star Tribune building stays and everything falls apart.

Also why aren't historic preservationist fighting to save the Dome?
Last edited by BigIdeasGuy on November 23rd, 2013, 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wedgeguy
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Re: Star Tribune Blocks

Postby Wedgeguy » November 23rd, 2013, 12:08 pm

Wells will not pull out. They have a name here in Minnesota that they don't want tarnished anymore than it is. Ryan want the cheapest way out, PERIOD. They will say it is a bust if they can't get their way until they are blue in the face. Just like they said that the park would be a no go unless Park and Portland were closed. Well guess what, they did not get their way and so far they have had to compromise.

I have no problem with then keeping the south half of the building and tearing down the north half so that there would be a half block of park on the north side of the building. Preserving that half of the façade that is the main entry and the façade that faces the light rail can be reused for a hotel that can be used by the Dome and Wells Fargo's out of town workers that are in town for the time being. While they are ripping things up they can build a tunnel from the Trib building to the Wells Fargo towers, Like St. Paul did to connect Excel Center and their library to the downtown skyways. It just means that Ryan and the city have to work, not on the cheap way out, but the right way for an outcome.
Like MplsSteve said earlier, LaSalle Plaza was a no go if they had to renovate the full State Theater. Guess what, the preservationist called their bluff and made for a much better development in the end. I really don't want the equivalent of a Block E park that we in the future bitch and moan about.
I'll take a one block Mears park solution, to a mega park that looks like the so called front yard of the Hennepin Center Government Center. I'm sure that the preservationist will be more than glad to work with Ryan to find a solution, but I really don't think Ryan want to find a solution to the problem.

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Re: Star Tribune Blocks

Postby Didier » November 23rd, 2013, 1:52 pm

What do you propose happens to the Star Tribune building if it's kept? Nobody wants to be there, and Ryan (or someone else) would have to pay millions to renovate it for a modern use.

The idea that keeping this building would be no big deal to the overall project is hard to believe. I'm also skeptical that Wells Fargo would face a massive PR disaster, much less any serious negative PR, for knocking down this building.

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Re: Star Tribune Blocks

Postby Wedgeguy » November 23rd, 2013, 2:59 pm

I already said that a hotel which, I've heard more than one person say is needed in this area, would be a great fit for this block. Close to the Dome, Wells Fargo, and the hospital. There is a whole parking lot behind the building that can be turned into a mini green space for a restaurant patio that would benefit both the hotel guests and the public it they wanted to use the space to relax also.
I've seen plenty of developers who's bluff fold when they found that they could not get their way. They say, they shout, they scream that if they do not get it their way it will be the highway. Those that hit the highway were wanting subsidies that we were not going to give anyway. Developers are looking for the cheapest way they can get it done. Can I give City Center as an example of, we the developer know best as to what you need and what will be "Good Enough" for what we are willing to spend,

As far as your nobody's go. Why is there articles in the Strib, talk on PBS, discussion on the radio talk shows about it, if there is no one that want this building. Contrary to the popular belief. keeping the Strib building can still happen with the Wells Fargo towers being built. One does NOT preclude the other. That only happens when you are short sighted and don't want to try and make it work. Use a skyway or a tunnel to connect the hospital and you have your built in customers. All I have to do is look at the Sheraton at the Midway Commons to see that the hospital is driving in a majority of their business. As I said earlier. Well Fargo would have out of town workers staying there as a way to provide convenience to them and their commute to work, across the street! Then you will get guest for the ball games, concerts, truck pulls, etc that can use those hotel room.

You can get many hours debate out of me on this. You wanted options. I gave you and option where there are 3 different groups of people that can make use of this hotel. I'd say that the hotel would be a better use of this land as far as how many people would end up on the said land in the end. Is having a few people a day hangin in the park better than, the block staying on the tax roll to increase the tax base, customers paying room taxes, people that would probably walk out to the park-hotel patrons! Have a coffee shop across Park Ave facing the light rail and you will have people able to buy coffee on their way to work. Like I said, my head is full of ideas. My ideas translate into more land on the tax rolls, Part of the taxes coming in from the hotel would be used to pay down the Dome, Target Center, Convention Center. There is nothing in the way of Wells not being able to build their tower other than plain pig headedness. The two don't share any bit of ground. Unlike Dinkytown, I have constructive ideas, that can make money for a developer that wants to pursue it. My answers are not," Because that is the way it should be." Mine ring with $$$$$.

Finally, you still have the block across from the Armory that you can make into a real city park, like the Mears in St. Paul. Instead of two block to program and build on, you have one and more can be spent to make it a real place that you would want to be in.

BigIdeasGuy
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Re: Star Tribune Blocks

Postby BigIdeasGuy » November 23rd, 2013, 4:10 pm

I'm not even going to try to debate you Wedge guy because you are clearly dug into your position and won't change your mind no matter what argument is presented to you. But answer me this, what if Ryan decides highway and walks away and nothing happens with the land? I know you'll say that Ryan is bluffing but what if they aren't? What happens if nothing happens? I'm sure you'll be happy that your building was saved, but that means it will still be an island surrounded by seas of parking lots. Does that sound like a win to you?

Anyways I still haven't been presented with an argument why the building should be saved outside historic preservation for the sake historic preservation. The only architecturally significant part is entry with the medallions and Star and Tribune lettering and I don't think that is really debatable. Also what is the important historical event that took place in the building? To use an example that's on everyone's mind currently, this isn't the Texas School Book Depository in Dallas. Sure great journalist wrote about historical events in the building but it didn't happen there.

BigIdeasGuy
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Re: Star Tribune Blocks

Postby BigIdeasGuy » November 23rd, 2013, 4:18 pm

Wedgeguy wrote:You can get many hours debate out of me on this. You wanted options. I gave you and option where there are 3 different groups of people that can make use of this hotel. I'd say that the hotel would be a better use of this land as far as how many people would end up on the said land in the end. Is having a few people a day hangin in the park better than, the block staying on the tax roll to increase the tax base, customers paying room taxes, people that would probably walk out to the park-hotel patrons! Have a coffee shop across Park Ave facing the light rail and you will have people able to buy coffee on their way to work. Like I said, my head is full of ideas. My ideas translate into more land on the tax rolls, Part of the taxes coming in from the hotel would be used to pay down the Dome, Target Center, Convention Center. There is nothing in the way of Wells not being able to build their tower other than plain pig headedness. The two don't share any bit of ground. Unlike Dinkytown, I have constructive ideas, that can make money for a developer that wants to pursue it. My answers are not," Because that is the way it should be." Mine ring with $$$$$.
Couldn't your argument about getting land on the tax rolls and not in parks be made about all parks. I mean if that's argument why not eliminate Central Park in New York or Hyde Park in London? Or how about Myers or Rice Park in St. Paul or Loring Park in Minneapolis? I'm sure eliminating the parks would generate millions of dollars of revenue for all three cities, not to mention the sale of the actually land it's self.

I will freely admit that I took the argument to the extreme but isn't that the logical end of your argument?

Didier
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Re: Star Tribune Blocks

Postby Didier » November 23rd, 2013, 4:58 pm

Turn it into a hotel. Sounds easy!

Wedgeguy
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Re: Star Tribune Blocks

Postby Wedgeguy » November 23rd, 2013, 5:23 pm

My logic is that this is land that right now produces taxes. Let it stay on the tax rolls. While the other block is also in the tax rolls, it is not being taxed at the same rate because there are no improvements in that land. Not to say that the city does not tax surface parking differently than a blank piece of land like what is next door to Calhoun Square. Do we really truly need two blocks worth of park?? That is the $64,000 question. I myself think not. I look at Mear's Park and Rice Parks, both in St, Paul. But they are smaller plots of land than one of the single MPLS blocks. Yet they both have very high foot traffic counts during the day. Mears extends into the evening, with the possible exception of winter. Workers, residence, hotel guest go to these parks because they have something to offer.
Rice offers views of the St. Paul Hotel, the Landmark Center. The Ordway, the public library. Conventions pass thru there when they don't want to take the skyways back to their hotels or to one of the restaurants. Mears is surrounded by thriving restaurants, Housing on close to 4 sides of it's block. Yet these one block hubs are big enough, yet small enough for people to navigate easily. It is why I say one block will be more than enough park land for that side of town. Ryan wants a grand mall, which is not a type of park that gets used a lot. I'll let the guys with the Cleveland background correct me. But when I was on Cleveland's Grand Mall that stretches from the Lake into downtown I really did not see a lot of people in those 4 blocks of park. Lots of tree and paths crossing the park, but nothing that made me want to stay there for more than the walk to the lake and back. Could have been a bad day for me when no one else what out and about. But do a Google Map and you will see what I mean.

You are correct BigIdeaGuy, You need to have green space. Those green spaces are what helps to sell neighborhoods in the city. People used to stay out of Bryant Park in NYC until they cleaned it up and made it a place where people now want to be and hang out again. Just because you plant a few trees and some sidewalks crossing it and a park bench or two is not going to make people want to be there. You need gardens, small cafes in or across from them, a small pond, You can use your imagination to put just about anything in there. But you have to make it manageable. There is green space on two side of the Armory that are not utilized at all, Why, maybe because they overlook parking ramps, surface parking lots. There is rarely foot traffic along those sections of street. Would I want to sit in a park and look over at the juvenile detention center, probably not. Why I say utilize the Strib block and make it work. Rebuild the back side of building and take what is now a parking lot and turn it into a garden that the hotels restaurant and guests can use. I'm just saying, It can be done, and it can work better than some great Mall so you can look out some big glass doors and see a skyline. Worst part is you will probably never be able to see that difference from a sea of parking lots to a park from most of the seats anyway.

Sorry I missed the Message before the one I answered. Yes or No, will the new Viking stadium be build with or without the Wells Fargo Tower. Or will the Dome be in jeopardy too as Ryan will refuse to build it! I think we both know that will not happen. The city is trying for a mega approach to get DTE rebuilt. So if Wells and Ryan walk, that just means that another developer will come in with ideas. Yes, MPLS has many developers, The city is where people are wanting to move to and live again. You have housing and commercial filling in north of these 4 blocks. Once the North Loop get built out, They will have to come east to stay close to the city. There is already housing with Grant Park and Skyscape to the south of DTE which has some great spots for a few more residential towers even some shorter office space, under 10 stories. The dynamic of the city have changed, DTE is the best available space to create a great neighborhood that would have a park that is surrounded by housing, restaurants, retail. Why do you think Ryan would prefer that the parks are a bust?? Because then they can come in and develop the space before the land values rise any higher. I'm just saying!
Last edited by Wedgeguy on November 23rd, 2013, 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

VAStationDude
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Re: Star Tribune Blocks

Postby VAStationDude » November 23rd, 2013, 5:23 pm

Does the Welk family own hotels? They're experienced commercial and residential developers. Maybe they could team up with Ryan and Wells Fargo?

Chauncey87
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Re: Star Tribune Blocks

Postby Chauncey87 » November 23rd, 2013, 5:48 pm

It is the Wilf family. Wilf! No more spelling the owner of the vikings wrong please.

The Star Tribune building will cost to much cash in renovations to make turning it into anything. Unless they qualify for millions in forgivable loans, grants and historic tax credits. I also seem to remember a hotel being proposed in the Wells Fargo towers. Unless that idea got dropped and if that is the case what would make a hotel in this building work? So how does spending money on a marginal looking building VS ripping this building down for over 300 million in new construction have a valid case?


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