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Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Posted: March 16th, 2014, 11:57 am
by MNdible
City slicker wrote:And common sense tells you a single tower within a reasonably cost efficient "height" would be way cheaper than two massive ugly boxes.
Why, exactly, does common sense tell you this?

Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Posted: March 16th, 2014, 3:10 pm
by Nathan
especially when you then own another vacant full sized block that you need to do something with, pay to market, try to find a tenant for, or maintain. just call up a developer and they'll tell you why it's more cost effective. because clearly they didn't think of it before you did...

Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Posted: March 16th, 2014, 7:17 pm
by stockman
I don't understand all the displeasure with what's taking shape. The buildings seem above average in design for this type of setting and I'm actually still in awe that this whole area is going to be developed the way it is going. Especially the Ryan hotel/apartment, I think it looks great. The only thing, and one thing I think people on this forum do not emphasize enough, is the need to design towards the street. This means good streetscape, ground level retail and not too much horizontal orientation for the pedestrian. And it means not building a second floor skyway level system that will draw away from the street. This should be the focus of criticism/attention in my view.

Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Posted: March 16th, 2014, 7:30 pm
by nickmgray
stockman wrote:I don't understand all the displeasure with what's taking shape. The buildings seem above average in design for this type of setting and I'm actually still in awe that this whole area is going to be developed the way it is going. Especially the Ryan hotel/apartment, I think it looks great. The only thing, and one thing I think people on this forum do not emphasize enough, is the need to design towards the street. This means good streetscape, ground level retail and not too much horizontal orientation for the pedestrian. And it means not building a second floor skyway level system that will draw away from the street. This should be the focus of criticism/attention in my view.
I couldn't agree more. I'd rather have a 5 story building with retail and good street presence than a 70 story building that's doesn't add anything to the neighborhood. The people who are more interested in height and the actual look of the building appear to be more interested in the skyline view and how the city will look from 5 miles away. Yes, tall building make the city look more attractive, but I'm sure people who live in Dubai would trade a few of their tallest towers for a city that's better connected with real neighborhoods.

Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Posted: March 16th, 2014, 7:38 pm
by John
The symmetrical twin towered Ryan/Wells Fargo project creates a lovely formal architectural presence for the park which will define its border on the north side. It takes design cues from other art deco buildings downtown and is meant to have an indigenous character that reflects our city's architectural traditions. I think the design is a good counterpoint to the Stadium, and sets a nice tone to begin the transformation of DTE. I agree it would be great to see a couple more daring buildings come about in this area in the future, but I'm more than sure that will happen.

Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Posted: March 18th, 2014, 8:00 pm
by JMS9
A quick thought - isn't it interesting how Target Field was going to revitalize the North Loop with huge projects and here we are 4 (?) years into the stadium and we have The Interchange and an apartment/condo by the Holiday store. Meanwhile developers are lining up with swords and pitchforks to fight over who gets to build projects next to the Vikings stadium. And not small ones either.

Not really driving at anything here just an observation.

Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Posted: March 18th, 2014, 8:13 pm
by FISHMANPET
Are you serious? There's tons of stuff happening in the North Loop. Meanwhile there's exactly one property where there's been any competition, the parking ramp development. The only stuff happening by the stadium right now other than that is the Ryan project.

Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Posted: March 18th, 2014, 9:13 pm
by uptowncarag
JMS9 wrote:A quick thought - isn't it interesting how Target Field was going to revitalize the North Loop with huge projects and here we are 4 (?) years into the stadium and we have The Interchange and an apartment/condo by the Holiday store. Meanwhile developers are lining up with swords and pitchforks to fight over who gets to build projects next to the Vikings stadium. And not small ones either.

Not really driving at anything here just an observation.
Apparently you haven't been to the North Loop.

Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Posted: March 18th, 2014, 10:58 pm
by web
North Loop was at full speed long before target field though

Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Posted: March 18th, 2014, 11:20 pm
by FISHMANPET
You can debate if Target Field has been a catalyst for development, but you can't look at North Loop and say nothing is happening, that's just not the case. Meanwhile there are exactly two projects around the stadium, and the city has had some hand in instigating both of them.

Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Posted: March 19th, 2014, 7:53 am
by m b p
I don't remember Target Field being sold to us a catalyst for development. I remember them specifically saying "this isn't an economic impact issue." I remember target field being sold to us as a "quality of life" issue. MSP needed an outdoor stadium (now that TF is build I think they were right).

Even though it wasn't sold to us as a catalyst for development, big plans were made, by private companies, to redevelop the area. However, they were drawn up right before/at the beginning of the recession. No hope. Now that the recession is over(-ish)... who knows. But there is quite a bit going on there.

However, the Vikings Stadium was sold to us as a catalyst for development. The city has their word on the line... and so they are getting involved in spawning these first few projects. That's not a bad thing. WF is spending 300 million (of 400) on the towers. I don't know what the numbers are, or how they break down, for the parking ramp/residential tower.

I think some wise decisions... as far as turning this into a neighborhood where a thousand or so people will live, another 5,000 work, and another couple hundred will stay in a new hotel... have been made.

This current round of construction, with the city's hand and alot of private money, will make the area more attractive to pure private development in the future... my guess.

Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Posted: March 19th, 2014, 2:23 pm
by Didier
One could argue that the "two" projects being developed by the Vikings stadium are apples to the North Loop development's oranges. I might be one of those who would argue that.

In regards to "economic impact," I feel like the discussion is needlessly polarized in order to achieve desired outcomes. With the Vikings stadium, it's a stretch to claim that developers are going to DTE because there is an NFL stadium. But the fact that there is a billion dollar investment into the area with a guaranteed shelf-life of at least 30 years obviously strips away the uncertainty of the area. The same discussion can be had in the North Loop. Yes, the neighborhood was already showing momentum, but locating a MLB stadium anchoring the neighborhood makes it a lot easier to invest in a nearby infill project or, more importantly, a transit center, which then makes it easier to invest further.

Stadiums are not Magic Bullets™ for development, but if done right they can clearly impact the market. The same could be said for a lot of things, too, but stadiums stand out because they are particularly large and have a publicly-guaranteed shelf-life.

Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Posted: March 19th, 2014, 3:18 pm
by RailBaronYarr
It would have been nice if the $150m the city put into the DTE neighborhood anchor was enough, but the city was still on the hook for more in the form of parking, skyways, and building/maintaining some reasonable sense of a park (note: I'm in agreement that a great urban park was necessary here, both for current and new residents as well as office workers - however, the scale is a bit much given adjacent plazas). If this were a new stadium coming into a previously unoccupied area (ie surface lots), I could see the argument that a $billion investment would take away some uncertainty. Unfortunately, we had a $157m (in $2014, nothing to scoff at) investment that hosted the exact same types of events with the same number of attendees as the new stadium (in fact, more since both Twins and Gophers FB played there) without the resulting neighborhood investments. If I had to put numbers to it, I'd say these are the relative weightings affecting the impetus for the 2 projects going on in DTE:

- 30% Adjacent land-uses in Mill District upping the value of the area west of the Dome by making the walk to the river more enticing, adding retail, and other people 24/7
- 30% Market/demographic changes for residential and office workers demanding more urban lifestyles, which also includes...
- 20% ...multimodal transportation options, of which this site will be hosting our regions only 2 LRT lines (plus future improvements in Chicago Ave aBRT)
- 10% additional financing from the city in the form of parking, etc
- 10% a brand new, spiffy NFL venue that may now host a Superbowl and NCAA FF (of course, we'll need to subsidize those as well by abating the sales taxes on entertainment, maybe more).

Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Posted: March 19th, 2014, 7:34 pm
by JMS9
m b p wrote:I don't remember Target Field being sold to us a catalyst for development. I remember them specifically saying "this isn't an economic impact issue." I remember target field being sold to us as a "quality of life" issue. MSP needed an outdoor stadium (now that TF is build I think they were right).

Even though it wasn't sold to us as a catalyst for development, big plans were made, by private companies, to redevelop the area. However, they were drawn up right before/at the beginning of the recession. No hope. Now that the recession is over(-ish)... who knows. But there is quite a bit going on there.
I just seem to recall designs for many 10-30 story developments in the original designs and models for Target Field. Plans showed most of 394 being built over with developments and North Loop dotted with tall buildings. Yeah, I know there are several low rise condos/apartments being built but nothing like the concepts showed. Meanwhile the land around the Vikings stadium seems to be signed, sealed, and delivered for some tall projects that will transform that area in a big way.

Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Posted: March 19th, 2014, 7:39 pm
by mrcity
There really is no comparison in the development of the two neighborhoods....The north loop contains unique buildings some of which are historic gems - others of which have a certain character and desirability not found outside minneapolis - surrounded by medium sized surface lots available for new construction but limited by zoning restrictions. The twins stadium certainly helped a trendy district by investing more funds for infrastructure as well as adding a pretty skyline addition.

East Downtown contains vast parking lots held by speculators hoping for an 80s style construction boom they dreamed about upon purchasing said blocks during 1980s construction boom - a few blocks away. Most of these lots have no height limitations or virtually no development restrictions -for the right price - but nobody or their mother has wanted to build a new office or apartment smack dab in the middle of ugly. Putting a new park and several new buildings as well as a stadium there greatly assists the main problem of the neighborhood:

UGLY

So, I would have to say, among the 2 stadiums, my humble opinion is that the new Vikings stadium and surrounding park really is more of a difference maker.

Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Posted: March 19th, 2014, 7:47 pm
by uptowncarag
JMS9 wrote:
m b p wrote:I don't remember Target Field being sold to us a catalyst for development. I remember them specifically saying "this isn't an economic impact issue." I remember target field being sold to us as a "quality of life" issue. MSP needed an outdoor stadium (now that TF is build I think they were right).

Even though it wasn't sold to us as a catalyst for development, big plans were made, by private companies, to redevelop the area. However, they were drawn up right before/at the beginning of the recession. No hope. Now that the recession is over(-ish)... who knows. But there is quite a bit going on there.
I just seem to recall designs for many 10-30 story developments in the original designs and models for Target Field. Plans showed most of 394 being built over with developments and North Loop dotted with tall buildings. Yeah, I know there are several low rise condos/apartments being built but nothing like the concepts showed. Meanwhile the land around the Vikings stadium seems to be signed, sealed, and delivered for some tall projects that will transform that area in a big way.
I believe the area around Target Field was to be called Twinsville and was supposed to mimic Wrigleyville but the condo market collapsed and we have what is there now. I am glad to have both stadiums and a healthy downtown.

Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Posted: March 19th, 2014, 7:57 pm
by Rich
What if, rather than in Downtown East, the new stadium foundations were being poured in Arden Hills right now? The Ryan deal - conceived by Rybak - which leveraged the stadium ramp and the Strib land, wouldn’t have happened. Wells Fargo would likely be closing a deal on the sprawling suburban campus they originally coveted. The Strib building, which had drawn no interest after being on the market for several years, would remain unwanted. And the now lame duck Metrodome would live on for two more years before entering limbo. How anxious would developers be to invest in the area?

Clearly the stadium has made a difference. It eliminated uncertainty and greased the skids for further development. The ball is rolling now.

Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Posted: March 19th, 2014, 8:08 pm
by mrcity
Rich wrote:What if, rather than in Downtown East, the new stadium foundations were being poured in Arden Hills right now? The Ryan deal - conceived by Rybak - which leveraged the stadium ramp and the Strib land, wouldn’t have happened. Wells Fargo would likely be closing a deal on the sprawling suburban campus they originally coveted. The Strib building, which had drawn no interest after being on the market for several years, would remain unwanted. And the now lame duck Metrodome would live on for two more years before entering limbo. How anxious would developers be to invest in the area?

Clearly the stadium has made a difference. It eliminated uncertainty and greased the skids for further development. The ball is rolling now.
Yes, if you think about it, how much would we all pay per month to avoid that Terminator movie esque suckitude? I know I don't want to be hunted by killer androids while walking near an emptry desolate futuristic metrodome....

Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Posted: March 19th, 2014, 9:14 pm
by m b p
Rich wrote:What if, rather than in Downtown East, the new stadium foundations were being poured in Arden Hills right now? The Ryan deal - conceived by Rybak - which leveraged the stadium ramp and the Strib land, wouldn’t have happened. Wells Fargo would likely be closing a deal on the sprawling suburban campus they originally coveted. The Strib building, which had drawn no interest after being on the market for several years, would remain unwanted. And the now lame duck Metrodome would live on for two more years before entering limbo. How anxious would developers be to invest in the area?

Clearly the stadium has made a difference. It eliminated uncertainty and greased the skids for further development. The ball is rolling now.
But think of the possibilities for a cool new strip mall and a possible suburban corporate campus that was missed.

Will there ever be "like" buttons?

Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Posted: March 19th, 2014, 10:13 pm
by seanrichardryan
So,it was parking? Right?