DTE: Wells Fargo, Radisson Red, Edition Apts & Millwright Building

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
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FISHMANPET
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Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Postby FISHMANPET » May 10th, 2015, 9:04 pm

There also aren't height limits downtown (right?) so air rights would be worthless.

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Munch'n
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Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Postby Munch'n » May 10th, 2015, 9:13 pm

FISHMANPET wrote:There also aren't height limits downtown (right?) so air rights would be worthless.

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Would just make developers shy away from adding more density to downtown.....
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Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Postby spearson » May 11th, 2015, 7:28 am

TroyGBiv wrote:The majority of that data center is underground - I think maybe 4 or 5 floors down.
I think it's more than this, closer to 7-8 levels below ground.

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Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Postby twinkess » May 11th, 2015, 7:37 am

I actually worked in the basement of this building as a temp for one day back in 2001. I believe it only goes down to sub basement 3.

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Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Postby Wedgeguy » May 11th, 2015, 7:56 am

twinkess wrote:I actually worked in the basement of this building as a temp for one day back in 2001. I believe it only goes down to sub basement 3.
3 block sized basements is a lot of SF for WF to use. That building will be with us for some time. until they have figured out a new method of security of data. I have to imagine that much of that hardware has been upgraded over the years. I know they just did some work on the driveways in the last few years.

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Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Postby twincitizen » May 11th, 2015, 8:00 am

FISHMANPET wrote:There also aren't height limits downtown (right?) so air rights would be worthless.

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Well that's not exactly true. Sure, there are no height limits in the downtown core. Selling the "air rights" in this instance would be selling the airspace above the existing building, as opposed to selling the property outright. That space obviously has some value, or will someday when there aren't any more surface lots around. You're right that the air rights are probably near worthless today though. Most likely case for the (distant) future of this particular site might be to lop off the existing portion above ground and rebuild over the underground data center, rather than selling air rights or something convoluted like that.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Postby FISHMANPET » May 11th, 2015, 10:12 am

Alright, turns out I'm confusing air rights in general with the specific idea of transferring development rights between buildings. Because there are no height limits downtown there's no value in transferring air rights, but building something over something else can certainly still be a thing...

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Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Postby MNdible » May 11th, 2015, 10:49 am

Not to get too far afield, but the site in question sits in the B4-1 zoning area, which means that while it doesn't have any height restrictions, it does have a maximum FAR of 8. (The core of downtown is the B4-2 zone, which has a maximum FAR of 16. Both zones are, of course, subject to a bevy of bonuses which allow that FAR to be increased significantly.)

acs
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Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Postby acs » May 11th, 2015, 3:37 pm

Looks like Ryan sold 3 of the liner lots of this project; the two against the office towers facing the park and the one at the west end of the park which we've been debating. Methinks Ryan is running out of both cash and time right now.

http://finance-commerce.com/2015/05/inv ... t-project/

MNdible
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Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Postby MNdible » May 11th, 2015, 3:47 pm

Based on what?

You can go back to the very earliest discussion of these sites and see that there was always speculation that Ryan would split off them off and have them developed independently. Given the way big projects like this are developed and funded, I don't think there's anything surprising about this news.

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Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Postby HiawathaGuy » May 11th, 2015, 4:09 pm

MNdible wrote:Based on what?

You can go back to the very earliest discussion of these sites and see that there was always speculation that Ryan would split off them off and have them developed independently. Given the way big projects like this are developed and funded, I don't think there's anything surprising about this news.
Agreed. I think this allows them to keep their focus on the towers/Radison/parking ramp property.

acs
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Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Postby acs » May 11th, 2015, 4:12 pm

Interesting that they didn't sell the 4th liner parcel, the one on the NE corner then. Would that indicate they have something farther along in planning then?

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Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Postby adam.voge » May 12th, 2015, 7:34 am

I obviously can't speak for Ryan, but a more appropriate interpretation of the sale is that Invesco (the buyer) is the equity partner on the apartment projects. Ryan, Excelsior Group and Invesco will all be joint owners, as was the case with 222 Hennepin.

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Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Postby HiawathaGuy » May 12th, 2015, 10:31 am

acs wrote:Interesting that they didn't sell the 4th liner parcel, the one on the NE corner then. Would that indicate they have something farther along in planning then?
The liner parcel remaining is on the north side of the west WF tower (on E 3rd Street, between Portland and Fifth Ave S), shown below.

Image

I too am inclined to think that Ryan must have something 'in-the-works' for that parcel, since it wasn't sold. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

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Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Postby seanrichardryan » May 12th, 2015, 10:33 am

It would make good space for TV/COM or Team offices.
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Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Postby acs » May 12th, 2015, 10:37 am

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/m ... -plan.html

"The three apartment buildings will total about 195 units and be complete in the spring of 2016."

Does anyone else think that's quite a low number of units for three buildings? I know the parcels lining the towers are quite small but I would have expected the "park" adjacent building to hold at least this many units.

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Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Postby EOst » May 12th, 2015, 10:43 am

The entire Nic on 5th is 253 units in 26 stories. How would you fit 195 units in a four or five story building?

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Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Postby mattaudio » May 12th, 2015, 10:45 am

Three buildings. And the liner parcels are each over 1/3 block whereas Nic on 5th's tower portion is less than 1/4.

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Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Postby nfschauer » May 12th, 2015, 10:49 am

If Radisson Red goes through, I wonder if they propose another hotel across Portland behind the second tower. I doubt it, but it wouldn't be out of the ordinary. Hotel chains are next door to each other all over the country. There are hardly any hotels in the east side of downtown. I work in the North Loop area and I can easily count 6 hotels from my window on the west side of downtown. I guess they could always walk in the skyways to get to the east side.....

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Re: Downtown East Project (Ryan Companies / Wells Fargo)

Postby EOst » May 12th, 2015, 11:01 am

mattaudio wrote:Three buildings. And the liner parcels are each over 1/3 block whereas Nic on 5th's tower portion is less than 1/4.
I was referring to this:
acs wrote:I know the parcels lining the towers are quite small but I would have expected the "park" adjacent building to hold at least this many units.


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