North Loop Neighborhood

[mattaudio]

It would great to see some strategic grid rebuilding in the far reaches of the north loop. Too many frontage roads, skewed intersections, etc making this as real of a barrier between the North Loop and Near North as the freeway trench. But this project wouldn't really affect any of those opportunities. This is probably a real need for the neighborhood.

Therefore my only critique is that it looks too suburban. And since that's a loaded critique around here, I'll elaborate by saying it looks like every newer suburban multi-level self storage facility I've seen in the suburbs.

[David Greene]

Too many frontage roads, skewed intersections, etc making this as real of a barrier between the North Loop and Near North as the freeway trench. But this project wouldn't really affect any of those opportunities. This is probably a real need for the neighborhood.

It is? Who uses these things, companies or individuals? In both cases, the solution is to get rid of your junk! I don't understand why we need so much storage. There's a huge complex right along Hiawatha for God's sake.

As for the location, long term 7th could become something of a commercial corridor between the North Loop and Near North. Obviously that's a long way off (HERC is a huge problem) so I guess I'm not overly concerned about this one project, but my fear is that we may see such uses on other lots and suddenly you'll have a 7th St. that can't redevelop.

[EOst]

Isn't there another self-storage place in the NL, next to Target Field?

[twincitizen]

Yep, this one here: https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9821501 ... Elpngg!2e0
Any ideas what that building could possibly be re-used for, if not self-storage? It's severely lacking windows. Even if it remains storage or similar, punching in some street level storefronts along 3rd Ave would be nice. Anyone have a historic image of this building?

According to Google maps, another smaller storage facility at 425 Washington Ave N closed recently: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Minne ... b3!6m1!1e1 (appears to have gone out of business just in the last 3 months).
Do we have any idea what that nice old building will be used for? It could be a fantastic location for offices.

Regarding questioning the need for the proposed one at 7th & 7th, I think that's a pretty dangerous game. You hear the same rhetoric coming from the anti-development crowd "we don't need any more apartments, restaurants, etc." If there wasn't any demand then they wouldn't be proposing it. It fits the industrial zoning well. It's a good use of the property, trapped between I-94 and 7th Stroad North.

[MNdible]

In many cases, from the developer side, self storage is a low investment way to pay the bills while you sit on a piece of property waiting for the market to ripen. That was almost certainly the case with the building on Washington, probably less so for the new-build proposed for the 7th Street site.

[David Greene]

Regarding questioning the need for the proposed one at 7th & 7th, I think that's a pretty dangerous game. You hear the same rhetoric coming from the anti-development crowd "we don't need any more apartments, restaurants, etc." If there wasn't any demand then they wouldn't be proposing it.

These aren't analogous. Everyone needs housing. Most people do not need so much stuff they can't even keep it in their living space. There is a solution other than building warehouses that don't actually house wares. Sell, donate or recycle it.

[EOst]

Yep, this one here: https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9821501 ... Elpngg!2e0
Any ideas what that building could possibly be re-used for, if not self-storage? It's severely lacking windows. Even if it remains storage or similar, punching in some street level storefronts along 3rd Ave would be nice. Anyone have a historic image of this building?

The address is 424 3rd Ave N, though who knows if it's been that since it was built (1914). I can't find it in the old city directories, though there were apparently a lot of people living at 424 3rd Ave NE at one point...

[xandrex]

These aren't analogous. Everyone needs housing. Most people do not need so much stuff they can't even keep it in their living space. There is a solution other than building warehouses that don't actually house wares. Sell, donate or recycle it.

I'm loathe to support self storage, since I too think it probably means you have too much stuff. But at the same time, there are some pretty small apartments with limited storage in the neighborhood. I assume most of these places have storage units available, but not every place has enough for every single unit (I know that's the case in my building, though it's obviously of a different age and neighborhood) or even enough space if they do.

If you've got a 500 square foot studio, you may still very well want to have winter gear (jackets, skis), bikes or a kayak, Christmas stuff, etc. It isn't like having a single family home where you have an attic or basement (or both!), plus very likely a garage.

[FISHMANPET]

I'm not saying I neccessarily disagree with you that we probably don't "need" self storage, but you don't have any basis of authority to make that judgement (nor do I, or really anyone).

We can all laugh when Nicole Curtis says "Uptown needs another apartment building like we need a hole in the head" because we know that rents in the area indicate that Uptown *does* need more housing. And the fact that somebody wants to build an apartment in Uptown means they at least think Uptown could use a new apartment building.

Now I don't work in the Self Storage industry, and I'm fairly certain you don't either, so I don't think either of us have enough insider knowledge to know that it costs $X per sqft to build storage and it can rent for $Y and we can get a Z% return on investment. But some people in the world do know that. And a few of them have gotten together to propose building one, presumably because they think they can make some money off of it.

And not everyone needs housing, or at least not in any specific form. Young adults could continue living in their parents basements instead of moving out into small 1 bedroom apartments. There's a non-zero amount of value judgement going into the current crop of construction, so yes, people need to live somewhere, but you can't exactly take the leap to the next step and say "This is objectively good" (aka there is no Truth with a capital T here).

And then to say people don't need so much stuff, that's a value judgement there too, and certainly not one I'm comfortable making. If having readily accessible self storage units lets people live in smaller living units, that seems good in my opinion. I think we'd all rather that a second bedroom be used to house people and not stuff, all things being equal. But that's just my opinion, I'm not going to try and sell it as an absolute Truth.

Furthermore, I don't believe the legal framework exists for anyone to challenge a building proposal because they don't think there's enough demand for it. Maybe there should be, I don't know, that's another discussion. But right now property rights are such that if you meet the zoning criteria you can build the thing. As far as I know there's nothing in zoning that says "must be economically viable," and to be honest I'd be loathe to allow the government that kind of power on that individual of a level.

[mattaudio]

David, you live in a grand Whittier SFH. I live in a more modest southside craftsman, with a garage and a full basement and an attic. But I can imagine that if I moved to a 800 SF downtown apartment, I'd be interested in space for recreation gear, etc. I do think it's ridiculous how many people spend massive amounts of money on storage. But if there's any place where more folks have a legitimate need, it's the North Loop.

[nordeast homer]

Regarding questioning the need for the proposed one at 7th & 7th, I think that's a pretty dangerous game. You hear the same rhetoric coming from the anti-development crowd "we don't need any more apartments, restaurants, etc." If there wasn't any demand then they wouldn't be proposing it.

These aren't analogous. Everyone needs housing. Most people do not need so much stuff they can't even keep it in their living space. There is a solution other than building warehouses that don't actually house wares. Sell, donate or recycle it.

Are we really going to dictate what people can and cannot own? It's more than bold, it's borderline offensive that you would go there. There are many circumstances where these things are needed and it's certainly not up to you to tell me what to do with what I own.
I have recently lost a parent and my other parent is looking to downsize. In order to do that we will likely need a facility like this to store some of the items until we decide what we can do with all of the furniture and other things.
When people get divorced there are often times these facilities are needed because people have too downsize quickly.
Some people who own small businesses that require some storage, but they are too small to own a storefront use these services.
There are a lot of instances where storage facilities are helpful and it's not just because people own too much stuff.

[David Greene]

If you've got a 500 square foot studio, you may still very well want to have winter gear (jackets, skis), bikes or a kayak, Christmas stuff, etc. It isn't like having a single family home where you have an attic or basement (or both!), plus very likely a garage.

Certainly. That's why I didn't say, "everyone." A 500 sq. ft. studio is a pretty specialized kind of thing. I lived in a (at the time) typical North Loop apartment and had plenty of space even without a storage locker.

[David Greene]

David, you live in a grand Whittier SFH. I live in a more modest southside craftsman, with a garage and a full basement and an attic. But I can imagine that if I moved to a 800 SF downtown apartment, I'd be interested in space for recreation gear, etc. I do think it's ridiculous how many people spend massive amounts of money on storage. But if there's any place where more folks have a legitimate need, it's the North Loop.

Wedge. And I don't think our house is particularly grand. It's pretty pedestrian. There's like 20 copies of it in the neighborhood alone.

The point about seasonal gear is a good one. That's why I didn't say we don't need any storage. But we do have a lot already. Obviously someone thinks we need more but is that because we really need it or because the dominant worldview leads to a consumerist society that wastes too much? I mean, we had more people living in the city with maybe roughly the same (or even less) square footage 50 years ago. Did we have so many storage places then?

[David Greene]

There are a lot of instances where storage facilities are helpful and it's not just because people own too much stuff.

Yes, certainly situations do require extra storage. I don't think I ever said otherwise.

But it's also true that we buy and waste a lot more today than we did even 30 years ago. It's not wrong to point that out and question whether it's a good idea. In fact I'm pretty sure it's not a good idea for a host of reasons.

[ztr421]

According to Google maps, another smaller storage facility at 425 Washington Ave N closed recently: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Minne ... b3!6m1!1e1 (appears to have gone out of business just in the last 3 months).
Do we have any idea what that nice old building will be used for? It could be a fantastic location for offices.

I think this one on Washington is still open; I actually cleared out my unit just two weekends ago. I think it only changed owners recently (it's called Central Self Storage now). The inside is pretty nice; although completely filled with garage-door storage units in the open warehouse floors. It looks like it had some fire damage at one time (my unit was on the 3rd floor), but it would make a great building for a more people-oriented use.

[RailBaronYarr]

Wedge. And I don't think our house is particularly grand. It's pretty pedestrian. There's like 20 copies of it in the neighborhood alone.

The point about seasonal gear is a good one. That's why I didn't say we don't need any storage. But we do have a lot already. Obviously someone thinks we need more but is that because we really need it or because the dominant worldview leads to a consumerist society that wastes too much? I mean, we had more people living in the city with maybe roughly the same (or even less) square footage 50 years ago. Did we have so many storage places then?

No, but we also were a lot poorer as a country, on the whole, than we are now (also, stuff is a lot cheaper now than then). Most families couldn't afford kayaks and downhill skis and snowboards and lawn games and multiple TVs and video games and kids toys and 2-3 vehicles per household and on and on. Matt's point is still valid even if your Wedge home isn't the 4,500 sqft variety. Unless I'm mistaken, you live with a wife and child in a home that has more sqft per person than many people lived with 50 or 100 years ago. Part of that is your love for the architecture of the home you bought, but part of it is also (likely) the space afforded by a detached SFH/garage - I'm guessing you haven't closed off multiple rooms and left the garage completely empty. Your vision of how much consumerism is fine isn't some holy number, and I'm guessing someone with fewer goods may consume just as much by spending that money on travel/entertainment/eating out/etc - all of which is still wasteful in its own way.

Lord knows we downsized a ton when we moved into our home, and still have quite a few boxes of stuff we haven't touched in 6 months that I'm eyeing for donation. But I also enjoy having Xmas decorations, tools, clothes, kitchen equipment, my Rock Band drumset, and any number of other things that go into storage for 95% of the year on hand for when we want them. I also like having space for a deep freezer to store breast milk and other frozen perishables. Am I a consumerist devil?

I don't really have a problem with this building - we know a lot of units going into the NL are smaller, and some are retrofits of old buildings where fitting in good storage may be difficult. However, the design leaves a LOT to be desired. I'm not even sure flexible ground floor space could save this thing with all the cement board panels on all 4 sides of the building. The city should demand more.

[MNdible]

with all the cement board panels on all 4 sides of the building

Minor point, but I believe that the building will have precast concrete panels (which is not the same thing as cement board).

[RailBaronYarr]

Minor point, but I believe that the building will have precast concrete panels (which is not the same thing as cement board).

Thanks, yes that's what I meant.

[Nathan]

Regarding questioning the need for the proposed one at 7th & 7th, I think that's a pretty dangerous game. You hear the same rhetoric coming from the anti-development crowd "we don't need any more apartments, restaurants, etc." If there wasn't any demand then they wouldn't be proposing it.

These aren't analogous. Everyone needs housing. Most people do not need so much stuff they can't even keep it in their living space. There is a solution other than building warehouses that don't actually house wares. Sell, donate or recycle it.

Hey everybody come live downtown in a much smaller unit than you had in the suburbs and get rid of all the things you think are valuable like your grill and your kayaks and all your other seasonal things becausei don't think you should have things. Love the lifestyle immediately, become a minimalist now, and if you're from Mexico you better learn English first.

[twincitizen]

Ok, I think we all got our shots in destroying David's strange crusade against personal storage. I'm sure he has mostly walked back his position, if not entirely. Let's move on.

This is a pretty ideal location for this type of use. Loud, stinky freeway armit (not going away). Loud, stinky Metro Transit bus facility (not going away...in fact, expanding). I think getting a new building in here, regardless of use, will only help with the future redevelopment of the large building to the south (between 7th Ave and Olson/6th) and maybe someday the Wells Fargo site too. The North Loop Small Area Plan envisioned the entire area southwest of 7th St N remaining industrial. I'll take a modern storage facility over an ugly, vacant cinder block building with barbed wire fencing.