North Loop Neighborhood

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
twincitizen
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Re: North Loop Neighborhood

Postby twincitizen » June 10th, 2013, 2:30 pm

Target Field Station/Interchange are pretty far from most of the housing boom though, and on the periphery of the residential North Loop. Only recently have a couple projects commenced south of the I-94 viaducts (The Natural and Junction Flats). I think the area that redisciple and others are referring to is the stretch of Washington (and parallel numbered Streets) between the railroad trench and 9th Avenue N. That's actually pretty far from any LRT station or frequent bus service. The 7 might as well not exist, with a pathetic 30 minute frequency during peak. The 14 isn't as bad, but still doesn't really cut it for the growing population here. A Washington-Broadway streetcar (read: aBRT) would help better connect the area to downtown. I guess I assume many of the people moving into the neighborhood also work in the growing creative industries within North Loop or they tolerate long walks to downtown (perhaps through the skyway connected B or C ramps)
Last edited by twincitizen on June 10th, 2013, 3:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Andrew_F
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Re: North Loop Neighborhood

Postby Andrew_F » June 10th, 2013, 2:32 pm

I think there is a difference between someone saying they'd prefer, in their ideal world, new buildings be built in the scale of the North Loop (4-8 stories) and someone saying they would like to actually prevent someone from building a 20-story building. I would assume that those who posted previously meant the former.

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Re: North Loop Neighborhood

Postby min-chi-cbus » June 10th, 2013, 3:22 pm

You'd be right!

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Re: North Loop Neighborhood

Postby David Greene » June 11th, 2013, 1:29 pm

I guess I don't grasp what you're getting at, Kazoo. Brain must be slow today.

The northern part of the Wedge is pretty far from the Uptown transit center. Sure, the 6 and the 12 stop close by but it's not like it's a transit mecca there.

My point is that folks seem to want density in a currently very healthy residential neighborhood but for some reason don't want higher density in a place already built for density.

I'm not arguing against more density in the Wedge. I've always said I would welcome 20 story towers on the main corridors. I just find it odd that we wouldn't want the same near the major transit hub that is Hennepin/5th/Interchange.

People actually want to tear down houses for density but don't really care about density in the most transit-rich environment we have. Seems like something worse than a double-standard and feels a bit like payback to those nast SFH owners.

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Re: North Loop Neighborhood

Postby woofner » June 11th, 2013, 2:04 pm

Not sure if I'm the 'people' you're talking about, but I expressly made an exception for transit-rich areas. See the post above in which you quoted me, then read Twincitizen's post about how transit actually kind of sucks in the North Loop north of the viaduct (certainly there is better transit in the Wedge).

Personally I don't see any difference between the ideal densities of the North Loop and the Wedge - I'd say they both would ideally be mostly 6-8 story walkups, or about 120 units/acre for the avg building. Of course the Wedge, as you note, has historic single-family homes that should be preserved through a historic preservation district, so ultimately the net density would be a bit lower.

To clarify what Daperpkazoo seemed to be saying, when we're talking about the world of the ideal, we might draw a line at 4th St and say 8 stories north of here and 20 stories south of here. But if someone were to actually propose a 20 story building north of 4th St, we may be willing to accept it due to real-world circumstances (e.g. no one seems willing to build a 20 story building south of 4th St, or maybe the building does a great job enhancing the streetscape and hiding the tower, etc).

Curious why you think the North Loop is "built for density" but the Wedge isn't?
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Re: North Loop Neighborhood

Postby RailBaronYarr » June 11th, 2013, 2:53 pm

redisciple wrote:Curious why you think the North Loop is "built for density" but the Wedge isn't?
I think this was my thought as well.. They're both areas with grid streets and reasonable access to park amenities (I would actually give the Wedge the nod with the multitude of lakes and Loring Park while the North Loop has the riverfront). If it's because there are already big, hulking warehouses that make a natural fit for conversion in to high unit/acre density with surface parking lots around it that make for easier acquisition, I understand that side. But those point to easier development, not necessarily that they're naturally suited for density.

As redisciple points out (and as you have many times in SWLRT discussions), the Wedge has better access to transit (even if it is overcrowded and slow-going thanks to street congestion), which would point to a natural fit for density there IMO.

FInally, redisciple has definitely been a proponent of a historic preservation district in the Wedge all along. I would be down with preservation intent was to preserve seriously historically significant styles or places where events occurred, not simply to limit density or preserve a certain neighborhood style. But that discussion could easily be had regarding warehouses in the North Loop as well.

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Re: North Loop Neighborhood

Postby alleycat » June 11th, 2013, 4:03 pm

RailBaronYarr wrote:
redisciple wrote:Curious why you think the North Loop is "built for density" but the Wedge isn't?
The North Loop, Elliot Park and Loring Park neighborhoods proximity to the downtown business district inherently make these places natural for high density. The North Loop and Mill District are natural heir apparents to the original dense downtown neighborhoods.

While neighborhoods like the Wedge and Whittier have a large amount of apartments the downtown neighborhoods have a preexisting built form that lends itself to increased density. Even without the artificial barrier that is created by the Lowry Tunnel, neighborhoods like the Wedge and Whittier were cushioned from the densest developments by the large swath of brownstones that encompass Stevens Square, Loring Park and southern part of Phillips.

Now I don't think that densification can't or shouldn't happen outside of the areas adjacent to the CBD, but the built form of the Wedge and Whittier are largely medium density developments including large SFHs. I think David is trying to make the argument that it's strange to say we need taller buildings in the Wedge, but we should somehow limit the development heights in the North Loop. If that later is the case then you should be advocating for appropriate sized dwellings in the Uptown neighborhoods and a preservation of the SFHs and the brownstones that make up a large chunk of that area. I think Redisciple was arguing for that anyhow.

As a Northsider I'd like to see the southern portion of the North Loop and then eventually the southern part of industrial north (aka between 94 and the river) and the Glenwood corridor build up naturally from the momentum that is occurring north of the viaduct. I'm not a big fan of the SWLRT alignment, but I see the Harrison neighborhood as a natural progression of the developments that are occurring in the North Loop. With the Van White station and the Washington/Broadway streetcar I hope that we can densify the city in these underutilized corridors.
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Re: North Loop Neighborhood

Postby FISHMANPET » June 11th, 2013, 4:22 pm

Nobody is saying that density should be limited in the North Loop...

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Re: North Loop Neighborhood

Postby alleycat » June 11th, 2013, 4:33 pm

FISHMANPET wrote:Nobody is saying that density should be limited in the North Loop...
And I wasn't saying that either. I was ineloquently trying say that North Loop and other CBD neighborhoods are natural fits for the highest density in the city.
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Re: North Loop Neighborhood

Postby RailBaronYarr » June 11th, 2013, 7:53 pm

I agree with you on the natural fit due to because of proximity to the CBD. But I would counter the proximity to the CBD with the proximity to the lakes, Greenway, and creek in the Wedge and surrounding mini neighborhoods. They're only a slightly longer walk/bike ride away from the CBD. Much like areas surrounding Central Park in Manhattan have higher residential densities than Midtown or the Financial District and some of their surrounding areas. In the end I wouldn't be surprised if a total free market saw both grow to the same levels. Just my take I guess.

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Re: North Loop Neighborhood

Postby David Greene » June 12th, 2013, 6:41 am

RailBaronYarr wrote:
redisciple wrote:Curious why you think the North Loop is "built for density" but the Wedge isn't?
I think this was my thought as well.. They're both areas with grid streets and reasonable access to park amenities (I would actually give the Wedge the nod with the multitude of lakes and Loring Park while the North Loop has the riverfront).
Thanks for your thoughtful response.

Loring Park really isn't very accessible from the Wedge because we put a damn freeway in-between the two and the Bottleneck is a nasty place to walk. I consider Isles, Calhoun and Bryant Square to be the major park areas near the Wedge.

Certainly I want to preserve the amazing Queen Annes in the Wedge. I just took a stroll along Aldrich/Bryant/Colfax yesterday and there are stunning houses north of 24th. Unfortunately, north of 24th is exactly where we have this ridiculous R6 zoning.

North of 24th really doesn't have that great of transit service. I'd say it's comparable to what's available in the further-from-downtown parts of the North Loop.

I'm totally with density south of 28th. That's really where the transit access is anyway. My house is pretty close to 28th so it's not like I'm only opposing density near my home.

But we've been through this argument before and it was not my intent to start it on another thread. :)

I do believe we should preserve some of the great old warehouses in the North Loop. I lived in one for a couple of years before buying my house. I was just more curious about how people perceived the two neighborhoods and why one is more suited for lots of density than the other.

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Re: North Loop Neighborhood

Postby David Greene » June 12th, 2013, 6:45 am

alleycat wrote:I think David is trying to make the argument that it's strange to say we need taller buildings in the Wedge, but we should somehow limit the development heights in the North Loop.
Yes, exactly. It just struck me as arbitrary and odd.
alleycat wrote:As a Northsider I'd like to see the southern portion of the North Loop and then eventually the southern part of industrial north (aka between 94 and the river) and the Glenwood corridor build up naturally from the momentum that is occurring north of the viaduct. I'm not a big fan of the SWLRT alignment, but I see the Harrison neighborhood as a natural progression of the developments that are occurring in the North Loop. With the Van White station and the Washington/Broadway streetcar I hope that we can densify the city in these underutilized corridors.
Yes! Glenwood is primed for some redevelopment. Harrison wants it, Ryan is interested in Linden Yards. The big problem right now is that the county wants to idle diesel commuter trains right where signature TOD could go!

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Re: North Loop Neighborhood

Postby RailBaronYarr » June 12th, 2013, 7:48 am

David Greene wrote:...
I'm not saying crossing 94 to get to Loring Park (and the CBD, by extension) is a pedestrian's dream, but the Loring Greenway is there. But it's not like the North Loop isn't made inhospitable in reaching amenities by the 94 viaduct and 394 exits/entrances. I'll concede that most Wedge residents probably don't use Loring Park as a normal 'everyday' park/amenity the way they would stroll over to Isles/Calhoun and the Midtown Greenway.

Either way, I don't think anyone was proposing actively limiting density in the North Loop. The comment was simply that in his opinion buildings with "height" (which I take to mean 8+, pushing 20) would work very well around excellent transit, with 6-8 story walkups being a natural fit to fill in the rest of the area (at least at this time, who knows what the NL would look like/demand 30 years from now). My comparison to the Wedge is that even on the southernmost portion if you're in the dead center (say, 28th and Dupont), you're never more than 4 skinny blocks from Lyndale or Hennepin for transit, and it gets easier as you head north. Bike infrastructure is great (relatively speaking) and parks/food are at the very least equal. I didn't want to have the preservation discussion, only that if they're at least close on what one would expect density to be, it is an eventuality that the interior of the Wedge would be targeted for 6-8 story buildings while Hennepin/Lake/Lyndale saw higher.

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Re: North Loop Neighborhood

Postby Avian » June 22nd, 2013, 2:10 pm

There is an extensive, gorgeous new website that covers details about nearly every condo building in the North Loop. More neighborhoods will follow soon. It's fun to explore!

condoguide.drgmpls.com

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Nick
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Re: North Loop Neighborhood

Postby Nick » June 22nd, 2013, 3:17 pm

Looks like they adopted the super obnoxious, giant scrolling format that a lot of the new New York City building websites have. Every once and a while I click one of the ads from the New York Times website and am puzzled over who that format appeals to.

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Re: North Loop Neighborhood

Postby mister.shoes » June 23rd, 2013, 5:59 pm

Designers and the people who pay them. It's the current trend/rage. As someone who has to build what designers concoct, I see all sorts of questionably-usable sites that present incredibly well.
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Nick
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Re: North Loop Neighborhood

Postby Nick » June 23rd, 2013, 8:58 pm

Hey, look at the picture! We're famous!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentrifica ... ide_theory

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Re: North Loop Neighborhood

Postby mulad » June 23rd, 2013, 9:43 pm

Yeah, from my early days as a Wikipedian when all I had was a point-and-shoot digital camera with a whopping ISO 100 image quality. I'm pretty sure I originally uploaded it, but I don't think I added it to that article. Does it really represent gentrification? That's usually redevelopment that pushes large, poor families out in favor of richer owners/renters who take up more space per person. That area was really just redevelopment of abandoned warehouses, wasn't it? Almost the opposite of gentrification, I would think...

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Re: North Loop Neighborhood

Postby mullen » June 24th, 2013, 6:11 am

i agree the north loop is not gentrification as there wasn't a population of people being priced out of living there. it's renovation of previous industrial/office use to residential.

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Re: North Loop Neighborhood

Postby twincitizen » July 18th, 2013, 7:22 am

Is this new? It says Greco closed on the sale June 15.
http://finance-commerce.com/2013/07/top ... orth-loop/ (paywall)


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