222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
Unity77
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby Unity77 » January 15th, 2013, 3:41 pm

nasa35 wrote:Drove by this VERY recently. OMFG.

:x :roll: :x :roll:

Not happy with this at all.
Screw aesthetics and the fact that there should have been higher standards set for this site. We are getting a Whole Foods. :roll:

nasa35

Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby nasa35 » January 15th, 2013, 3:46 pm

Unity77 wrote:
nasa35 wrote:Drove by this VERY recently. OMFG.

:x :roll: :x :roll:

Not happy with this at all.
Screw aesthetics and the fact that there should have been higher standards set for this site. We are getting a Whole Foods. :roll:
The whole foods aspect is great, no doubt. But otherwise, this is such a complete disaster.

I get the sarcasm, though.

mattaudio
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby mattaudio » January 15th, 2013, 3:47 pm

Why did they even bother? I'd much prefer some underwhelming boarded up car dealership or a surface lot. Compared to those options, this sure is a disaster.

nasa35

Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby nasa35 » January 15th, 2013, 3:50 pm

mattaudio wrote:Why did they even bother? I'd much prefer some underwhelming boarded up car dealership or a surface lot. Compared to those options, this sure is a disaster.
you will regret this some day, mark my word. Not the effing gateway of all places!!!!!!!!!!

mattaudio
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby mattaudio » January 15th, 2013, 3:56 pm

At that point, we can knock it down and build a tower. There's an entire spectrum of development between surface parking and 500'+ tower.

Tyler
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby Tyler » January 15th, 2013, 4:22 pm

Love the enthusiasm for the gateway(!!!). Top 5 destination in the upper Midwest.
Towns!

Unity77
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby Unity77 » January 15th, 2013, 4:26 pm

mattaudio wrote:At that point, we can knock it down and build a tower. There's an entire spectrum of development between surface parking and 500'+ tower.
I could care less if there is a 500'+ tower at this site. I just thought the location deserved something better in regards to design.

John
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby John » January 15th, 2013, 5:15 pm

I think 222 will look better than what some people think when it's completed. However, I'm hoping the era for these 6-7 story buildings is almost over. There is a sense of monotony about the design of these buildings, and they do nothing to contribute to our skyline. We need more density that is vertical and high rise in downtown, with an emphasis on pedestrian friendly architecture at the street level.

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Nathan
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby Nathan » January 16th, 2013, 12:50 pm

John wrote:I think 222 will look better than what some people think when it's completed. However, I'm hoping the era for these 6-7 story buildings is almost over. There is a sense of monotony about the design of these buildings, and they do nothing to contribute to our skyline. We need more density that is vertical and high rise in downtown, with an emphasis on pedestrian friendly architecture at the street level.
I also think it will look better than people think. I'm sure they are going to appoint it well, but I totally understand why people find it underwhelming with it's neighbors being Yamasaki and Pelli... still plenty of room to fill out the gateway area with some cool architecture.

ECtransplant
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby ECtransplant » January 16th, 2013, 12:57 pm

fotoapparatic wrote:still plenty of room to fill out the gateway area with some cool architecture.
This. There are swaths of developable land adjacent to this site. Getting Whole Food next door will make it easier for someone to put something special there.

nickmgray
Union Depot
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby nickmgray » January 16th, 2013, 2:28 pm

I know there are a lot of sarcastic comments on this page, but lets not forget that aesthetics mean absolutely nothing. It's all about that the building offers and how it incorporates into the neighborhood. If 222 is able to get people out and create a more vibrant neighborhood, it will be a success.

Personally, I don't like the look of the building. But I do think that the finished product will be so much better for this intersection than the car dealership ever was.

web

Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby web » January 16th, 2013, 2:56 pm

hey man is the sort command going to work again......especially the "view unread posts"??????

John
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby John » January 16th, 2013, 6:02 pm

fotoapparatic wrote:
John wrote:I think 222 will look better than what some people think when it's completed. However, I'm hoping the era for these 6-7 story buildings is almost over. There is a sense of monotony about the design of these buildings, and they do nothing to contribute to our skyline. We need more density that is vertical and high rise in downtown, with an emphasis on pedestrian friendly architecture at the street level.
I also think it will look better than people think. I'm sure they are going to appoint it well, but I totally understand why people find it underwhelming with it's neighbors being Yamasaki and Pelli... still plenty of room to fill out the gateway area with some cool architecture.
And we also have plenty of very talented Minnesota architects who can build great architecture. Nasa35 and Retired banker are very astute in their understanding of what will make our urban core successful. The key for downtown success is to have more vertical density and multi-use projects (on smaller parcels of land) which create that "critical mass" of people and activity that encourages street level retail, increases public safety, etc. The problem with these 6-7 story buildings is while they do create horizontal density in the city, they are weak in creating a strong dense urban fabric that's bustling. Just walk through the North Loop at different times of the day: it's virtually a ghost town.

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Nick
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby Nick » January 16th, 2013, 6:17 pm

John wrote:
fotoapparatic wrote:
John wrote:I think 222 will look better than what some people think when it's completed. However, I'm hoping the era for these 6-7 story buildings is almost over. There is a sense of monotony about the design of these buildings, and they do nothing to contribute to our skyline. We need more density that is vertical and high rise in downtown, with an emphasis on pedestrian friendly architecture at the street level.
I also think it will look better than people think. I'm sure they are going to appoint it well, but I totally understand why people find it underwhelming with it's neighbors being Yamasaki and Pelli... still plenty of room to fill out the gateway area with some cool architecture.
And we also have plenty of very talented Minnesota architects who can build great architecture. The key for downtown success is to have more vertical density and multi use projects on smaller parcels which create that "critical mass" of people and activity that encourages street level retail, increases public safety, etc. The problem with these 6-7 story buildings is while they do create horizontal density in the city, they are weak in creating a strong dense urban fabric that's bustling. Just walk through the North Loop at different times of the day. It's virtually a ghost town.
For the four or five people who keep saying this: Just because you're saying it doesn't make it correct. Even if you're saying it over and over again in a whole paragraph. Height has nothing to do with the arguments you're making, except for the one about a pretty skyline. Here's an example of four stories. Here's an example of a taller building. The points you are trying to make are not related to the things you are saying. Please try harder.

beykite
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby beykite » January 16th, 2013, 7:20 pm

Yea man but... Like... Think about the skyline????? OMG It must look so much better in that second view.

min-chi-cbus
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby min-chi-cbus » January 16th, 2013, 10:03 pm

Guys, between this and another thread I've been a part of tonight, this forum is starting to become a shit-fest....the very thing this place doesn't need to become. I LOVE that about this forum -- people talk cities!! It's not my call obviously but the "total fail" and "try harder" kind of talk should stay in places like C-D, IMO.

*Edit: My bad....carry on.

John
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby John » January 16th, 2013, 11:58 pm

Nick wrote:For the four or five people who keep saying this: Just because you're saying it doesn't make it correct. Even if you're saying it over and over again in a whole paragraph. Height has nothing to do with the arguments you're making, except for the one about a pretty skyline. The points you are trying to make are not related to the things you are saying. Please try harder.
I think it's great we are filling up some of our empty lots with 6-7 story buildings. But I think this needs to be balanced with more high rise, multi-use development. I really like 222 and some of the other projects going up downtown and in Uptown. 222 in particular is a good project because it is multi-use with some retail at the street level. That will encourage more pedestrian activity around it , at least on the corner of Hennepin and Washington. But (for example) , a block the same size as 222 can comfortably fit 250 apartments, a 300 unit hotel (on top of 10 floors of office space), and incorporate several retail stores wrapped around the building rather than just Whole Foods fronting one side on Washington Ave. This is a more dynamic mix and concentration of activity than what is being built now. Nick , for some of us it's not just about having pretty skylines. It's a passionate belief that building "up" will make our downtown more energetic and vital like Seattle or San Francisco. It's the next step to take in the transformation of our downtown to a mature urban core.

Razorback
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby Razorback » January 17th, 2013, 12:22 am

Height issues aside, it is so wonderful to look that direction from 4th or 5th (or I guess anywhere) and see SOMETHING where there has been this huge gap for as long as I've ever known. Imagine what it will be like to return some life -and a good deal of it - to this corner which was robbed of it so long ago. Fantastic. Maybe someone will revive the Elipse (or was it Eclipse?) towers across the street and we get the best of both.

beykite
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby beykite » January 17th, 2013, 12:41 am

John wrote:It's the next step to take in the transformation of our downtown to a mature urban core.
That last sentence there is key. It will happen eventually. As surface lots go away it will only make sense for developers to build up. I understand the frustration people are feeling but we need to remember, we are not San Francisco or Seattle. We have a ways to go before we get there. These 6-10 story buildings will offer good support for when the next wave comes in with (hopefully) taller buildings. Instead of a 30 story building sitting in the middle of blocks and blocks of surface parking at least there will be some infill development around. What gets tiring is the fact that many of the topics on the forum now are just people bickering about how nothing is good enough or right and how everything should fall in line with their fantasy. There's very little talk of the actual real life construction. If you honestly think you know the best way to do these things then by all means, become a developer and go get financing for that 250 unit apartment building with 300 hotel rooms and 10 floors of office. Bonus points if you can turn a profit.

tabletop
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby tabletop » January 17th, 2013, 1:00 am

So did you guys hear that due to higher insurance costs they've had to do a minor redesign to some of the ammenitys to save some money. Instead of having the pool on the roof they're going to just leave it in the basement... ;)


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