222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

[MNdible]

I think it's a great location and would give my first born for a renovated-to-tolerable-square-footage apartment in an old 3 or 4 story italianate if they hadn't torn them all down.

Were there ever such things at this location? A serious question -- this area in my mind wasn't ever really a residential district.

And this may not be the thrust of your comment, but if there were such things here, and if they hadn't been cleared by the Gateway demolition (or a previous demolition), can we really imagine a present in which these buildings are still standing in something resembling their original condition?

[MNdible]

That said, there's still a lot that's undesirable once the building goes up. A bunch of dumpy surface parking lots and strip clubs separate this space from all of the "action" on Hennepin. The North Loop neighborhood, which nice in parts, still has way too many parking lots to feel like a true "neighborhood." In a decade, with the potential library park and additional infill in the area, this area could be great. For my money right now, though, I'd much rather live across the river in Northeast.

Yes, there's a lot of work still to do in the area, but what I like about it is that while you're in a little bit of a no-man's-land, you're also very close to all of the great things and neighborhoods that downtown has to offer. Easy walk to the North Loop, to the Mill District, to the Warehouse District, to Nicollet Mall and the downtown core, to the river and its amenities, and even to St. Anthony Main. Close to LRT, and also, don't underestimate easy access to those Hennepin Avenue bus lines (the 4 and the 6 will get you to a lot of cool stuff in a hurry).

Also, you assume being close to strip clubs is a bad thing.

[nordeast homer]

My understanding is that a good number of the buildings that had been in the gateway area were sooo delapidated that they were not only an eyesore, but a hazard. They were flop houses for crying out loud, not palaces. There are a lot of people that follow this site that get really upset when old building get torn down, but some building just need to go, they serve their purpose and the cycle is done. When it comes down to it, they are all just brick and mortar...I'd rather have an empty lot than a boarded up building that's falling apart, but I'm evil that way.

[John]

222 has a fantastic location and, as stated above, is very convenient and walkable to all the amenities downtown and the riverfront. You will have access to a full service grocery store on site which is a huge amenity in itself. This part of downtown is poised to experience rapid growth over the next 10-15 years. I predict the area around this project will not be "no-man's land " for long.

[Tyler]

I lived in this immediate area about 5 years ago and I agree that it's super convenient. But it really is a shit show at night. Obviously this project and others nearby will help but it's still going to be an interesting mix.

[woofner]

Were there ever such things at this location? A serious question -- this area in my mind wasn't ever really a residential district.

I guess I should have specified italianate commercial structures, like the ones in this Lileks page. These certainly lined Hennepin and Washington, but I'm not sure how many were on the numbered streets - those may have mostly been warehouses. But yeah, the Gateway definitely had a residential population - I'd have to doublecheck my notes but I seem to remember the '59 Downtown plan listing it as 10,000 (give or take 5,000). Most of these people lived in tiny rooms, and I was imagining an alternate reality in which just the interior walls were knocked down in those things (many of them supposedly made of cardboard anyway) rather than the entire structure.

And this may not be the thrust of your comment, but if there were such things here, and if they hadn't been cleared by the Gateway demolition (or a previous demolition), can we really imagine a present in which these buildings are still standing in something resembling their original condition?

Were there not endless waves of Federal cash available, would these structures still be standing? I think the answer can probably be found on the Main St of any small MN city, where most of the buildings hail from this era but there are certainly frequent disfigurements and missing teeth. Of course I can't say this for certain, but I would guess that the area would mostly have avoided private renewal due to its seedy reputation and the widespread availability of more consolidated and vacant land, in East Downtown for example.

My understanding is that a good number of the buildings that had been in the gateway area were sooo delapidated that they were not only an eyesore, but a hazard. They were flop houses for crying out loud, not palaces.

That is certainly what the HRA claimed, but they said that about the Metropolitan building too. I would be surprised if at the least most of the limestone facades couldn't be saved and the interior of the structures largely replaced. It's not like there was something unique about the Gateway that made the buildings age more quickly than, for example at Lyn Lake or the facades at Galtier Plaza - they were built with the same stone and the same enormous wood frames.

[reeckman]

Are Italianate etc facades possible to build new anymore? Or is it too expensive for a developer to go high quality faux-historical with varied materials. A simple new 3-4 story stick building, extremely varied in nice stone facades of different styles at correct scale, could give an instant old town feel to any open block downtown. It would have to be authentic to work though.

Is there a reason nobody does this? It would be an architect's dream to integrate a mix of many styles into one project. I'm sure buying building exterior materials like cement board and sheet metal or whatever is popular today is lower price in bulk. But I don't think any uniform looking boxy residential building today is all that impressive or inviting to non-residents.

[Nathan]

I think it's a great location and would give my first born for a renovated-to-tolerable-square-footage apartment in an old 3 or 4 story italianate if they hadn't torn them all down.

Were there ever such things at this location? A serious question -- this area in my mind wasn't ever really a residential district.

Italianate is style of architecture that doesn't strictly adhere to homes... there were Italianate style storefronts and warehouses in the area prior to gateway deconstruction. I think what MNdible is saying is that he would by a loft conversion of a commercial Italianate in a heartbeat. Should be similar to the block here...

[MNdible]

I would be surprised if at the least most of the limestone facades couldn't be saved and the interior of the structures largely replaced. It's not like there was something unique about the Gateway that made the buildings age more quickly than, for example at Lyn Lake or the facades at Galtier Plaza - they were built with the same stone and the same enormous wood frames.

The picture you linked to from Lileks was telling -- these buildings already looked old and tired in 1920 or whenever that photo was taken. The gateway buildings are certainly much older than anything in LynLake, and older than most of the buildings in the Galtier Plaza area.

Many of these were likely "first generation" buildings, which means that they were thrown up quickly, using readily available materials (that plattesville limestone is terrible stuff to build from) and without a great deal of engineering know-how. To compare them to the Metropolitan (or any of the larger warehouse or commercial buildings) may seem like they're analogous, but they're really not. Those 20-30 years make a huge difference in the professionalization of building and construction.

Don't get me wrong -- there were some great buildings torn down during the Gateway renewal, but I don't think these fall into that category. They were poorly constructed shotguns on narrow, deep lots with not enough windows to make them very habitable for decent/humane housing. Just because they packed bums into these buildings doesn't make this a residential district.

Short of saving the facades and turning them into a slightly more authentic Block E, I'm honestly not sure what they could have done with them.

[woofner]

Many of these were likely "first generation" buildings, which means that they were thrown up quickly, using readily available materials (that plattesville limestone is terrible stuff to build from) and without a great deal of engineering know-how.

Strictly speaking I believe that most of them cleared in the Gateway renewal were 2nd generation, having replaced the earlier western style all-wood commercial structures. But you're right that they seem to be older than I thought - I was thinking 1880's-90's, but most of them seem to be 10 or 20 years older than that based on MNHS photos.

I certainly subscribe to the huckster-and-charlatan-dominated view of our history that your theory is dependent on, so I'd be interested in knowing more about the flimsy construction practices of pioneer real estate speculators. I have a hard time believing that they couldn't find anyone who knew how to build a solid building, or that after trying out building stuff for 10 years they finally figured out how it worked in the 1880s, but I could see the codes and/or enforcement being lax until later. The only trouble with that is St Peter's Minnesota St, which dates back to the same decade as the Bridge Square stuff, uses many of the same materials, and is still standing today and much of it looks to be in great shape.

They were poorly constructed shotguns on narrow, deep lots with not enough windows to make them very habitable for decent/humane housing. Just because they packed bums into these buildings doesn't make this a residential district.

This is certainly what the HRA press releases said, but a lot of the people living here were just low-income single men. If you take the view that these people aren't entitled to housing, that's your immoral opinion, but it doesn't change the fact that when they reside somewhere it becomes a residence, and a group of such residences is residential. It's the sort of low-income SRO neighborhood that has been converted to fancy condos in Chicago, New York, Cincinnati, and the few other cities that didn't destroy all of their similar districts. I actually live in an SRO building on Hennepin that was converted to condos in the 70s, although it dates to the 1890s. And I'm sure you're aware that many cities are primarily composed of shotguns on narrow, deep lots with few windows. Maybe you think that the entire city of Baltimore is lacking in decent/humane housing, but I think you'll find some residents who disagree.

[seanrichardryan]

If you want to see a terrible example of how a developer interprets historical facades visit Hennepin & University ave NE. That apartment project is atrocious. The facades of the 'buildings' overlap, it's bizarre.

[MNdible]

Did you just call me immoral? Oh, snap. Was it because I used the word "bums"? I suppose you would have been offended by "winos" too? [I kid.]

Go back through and read the accounts of the housing conditions in these buildings. They make SRO's look like luxury condos. It was not good.

You're right, I'm sure, about these building being strictly speaking second generation, although I think you'd be surprised that in many instances, these commercial building popped up around the bridge very shortly after the land was opened up to development. It seems that there was quite a bit of pent up demand and speculation.

I suppose that part of the reason why St. Peter looks so much better is simple maintenance -- this part of downtown Minneapolis was already getting ragged, unloved, and unmaintained by shortly after the turn of the century. The other big difference, I expect, was the use of the Plattesville Limestone vs. brick. It was readily available and easily quarried in early Minneapolis, but I'll reiterate that it really isn't a good building material.

It's only speculation, but I just don't see that these buildings would have survived for another 30 years given their pre-Gateway trajectory. Not that somebody couldn't have come in and invested a lot of money to repair and upgrade these buildings, but why would they have?

[reeckman]

Seanrichardryan--Great example of a lackluster attempt at the right idea. Looking at it w google street view--WOW I hadn't noticed how bad that is. But even if that developer aligned the facades, there still no interesting design features, no real contrast in adjacent facades within that development. We need somebody to go all the way with it.

That stretch of Hennepin on the other side of the street is oozing with character, and not by being a uniform block of a single color! I'd like to see a developer get an entire empty block and make it so varied in style that it automatically has that character. Timeless charm yet all the amenities of new mixed-use construction.

Too expensive or good investment?

[Cyclotron]

Not to sidetrack the thread too much, but MNdible just put on a clinic on how to correctly respond to an online insult.

[woofner]

Did you just call me immoral? Oh, snap. Was it because I used the word "bums"? I suppose you would have been offended by "winos" too? [I kid.]

Call them whatever you want, but if you say that they don't count as a residential community or it doesn't matter if they're homeless or relocated whereever's convenient, that's immoral. I'm guessing that's not what you're saying, but it was reminiscent of that kind of argument to me. Judith Martin in Past Choices/Present Landscapes mentions that some of them had lived there 40-60 years, and after they'd been relocated "tried to return to their former abode". They did not want to leave, and I think that deserves some consideration. There were also much fewer of them than I thought - she says there were 2427 relocated by renewal, and while there were probably more living in the area just outside the renewal boundaries, 2500 seems like a safe ballpark.

Go back through and read the accounts of the housing conditions in these buildings. They make SRO's look like luxury condos. It was not good.

Certainly I've heard some bad things - Judith mentions 40 cage hotels were cleared, but that was out of 180 structures cleared. There's no question that some of the buildings could not have been rehabilitated. But I'm just as certain that many could, especially when I look at pictures like these. The spaces look tiny and creepy, but they don't look like they're in particularly bad shape - I've certainly stayed in more delapidated hotels. Hell I lived in houses in worse condition.

It's only speculation, but I just don't see that these buildings would have survived for another 30 years given their pre-Gateway trajectory. Not that somebody couldn't have come in and invested a lot of money to repair and upgrade these buildings, but why would they have?

Just like we can keep arguing the condition of the buildings that went down, we can certainly argue forever about what would have happened if they had remained. I look at similar buildings in similar neighborhoods in Chicago, Milwaukee, Cincinnati and New York that weren't cleared and today are being renovated into condos. Probably the biggest difference is that in those cities there were far more of them - in Minneapolis the Gateway was the largest cluster and therefore an easier target.

[Ubermoose]

Here's a new photo for those who haven't seen the progress lately.Sorry, it's from an older phone.http://us.mg6.mail.yahoo.com/ya/downloa ... x&inline=1

[mplser]

link doesnt seem to work

[Nick]

It's cool to see up close how they're integrating the old parking garage into the new structure.

[mulad]

And I see you've captured some magical new hover-cars as well!

[nasa35]

With all the excitment about this spectacular project and its design, i would have figured this would be constantly commented on?