Minneapolis Skyway System

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
twinkess
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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby twinkess » October 1st, 2014, 8:26 pm

Normandy just replaced all their windows within the last year or two as well.

This summer they re landscaped the entrance to the parking lot on 9th

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby MNdible » October 1st, 2014, 9:30 pm

Normandy just replaced all their windows within the last year or two as well.

This summer they re landscaped the entrance to the parking lot on 9th
Man, you'd think they could find a little money to patch the stucco where it's falling off the brick...

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Lancestar2 » October 1st, 2014, 9:36 pm

Normandy just replaced all their windows within the last year or two as well.

This summer they re landscaped the entrance to the parking lot on 9th
wow, that sure will be nice to see what it looks like with a little new landscaping. Thanks for the tip. I still think it's a neat and unique looking building downtown. I'm not sure what type of style it is though. I guess we can probably expect Center Village won't be decreasing their storage space anytime soon. Skyway or no Skyway Best Western will most likely be able to rent out there rooms for the Super Bowl season.


Now does anybody know if the Laurel Village the building between 11th and 12th on Hennepin is build to accommodate a skyway either private or public?

As discussed in another thread the empty block west of the A Ramp may eventually be developed after the Salvation Army relocated. Which would bring the skyway just across the street (if both blocks are developed with a skyway) It may be a nice ending point for the skyway as it would bring people down to the street next to CVS and close to Lund's too. The building looks pretty modern so was there any talk of this during it's creation?

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby FISHMANPET » October 1st, 2014, 10:44 pm

I had some friends live in Laurel Village, and the second floor and a few floors up is all parking except for stairwells and elevators in the core. I think the best you could do is build a skyway to it, but not really through it.

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Silophant » October 2nd, 2014, 6:58 am

Now does anybody know if the Laurel Village the building between 11th and 12th on Hennepin is build to accommodate a skyway either private or public? <br abp="653"><br abp="654">As discussed in another thread the empty block west of the A Ramp may eventually be developed after the Salvation Army relocated. Which would bring the skyway just across the street (if both blocks are developed with a skyway) It may be a nice ending point for the skyway as it would bring people down to the street next to CVS and close to Lund's too. The building looks pretty modern so was there any talk of this during it's creation?
I live in Laurel Village, but not in that building. FISHMANPET is right, the second floor is just parking, so what you suggest is possible, but would require sacrificing a bunch of existing parking spots. The building is fairly new (early 90's I believe), but older than the ABC ramps and the UST campus, so the nearest skyways were pretty far away when it was built.
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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby acs » October 2nd, 2014, 7:44 am

Now does anybody know if the Laurel Village the building between 11th and 12th on Hennepin is build to accommodate a skyway either private or public? <br abp="653"><br abp="654">As discussed in another thread the empty block west of the A Ramp may eventually be developed after the Salvation Army relocated. Which would bring the skyway just across the street (if both blocks are developed with a skyway) It may be a nice ending point for the skyway as it would bring people down to the street next to CVS and close to Lund's too. The building looks pretty modern so was there any talk of this during it's creation?
I live in Laurel Village, but not in that building. FISHMANPET is right, the second floor is just parking, so what you suggest is possible, but would require sacrificing a bunch of existing parking spots. The building is fairly new (early 90's I believe), but older than the ABC ramps and the UST campus, so the nearest skyways were pretty far away when it was built.
I could still see it happening if the vacant buildings/lot across the street next to the bulldog are ever developed as residential. The ramp next to UST has a skyway-level causeway closed off from the parking that could be extended west to the bridge across Hennepin.

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Lancestar2 » October 2nd, 2014, 1:18 pm

Now does anybody know if the Laurel Village the building between 11th and 12th on Hennepin is build to accommodate a skyway either private or public? <br abp="653"><br abp="654">As discussed in another thread the empty block west of the A Ramp may eventually be developed after the Salvation Army relocated. Which would bring the skyway just across the street (if both blocks are developed with a skyway) It may be a nice ending point for the skyway as it would bring people down to the street next to CVS and close to Lund's too. The building looks pretty modern so was there any talk of this during it's creation?
I live in Laurel Village, but not in that building. FISHMANPET is right, the second floor is just parking, so what you suggest is possible, but would require sacrificing a bunch of existing parking spots. The building is fairly new (early 90's I believe), but older than the ABC ramps and the UST campus, so the nearest skyways were pretty far away when it was built.
I could still see it happening if the vacant buildings/lot across the street next to the bulldog are ever developed as residential. The ramp next to UST has a skyway-level causeway closed off from the parking that could be extended west to the bridge across Hennepin.
Does that skyway extend inside of the ramp? I never been inside that location so I have no idea. Also based on the information provided perhaps a skyway through Laurel Village is not realistic though a small space to connect may be possible in the future. The church parking lot may be a better option but do they even intend to develop the space? The UST already has a skyway connection would they be willing to remove space for parking for a second?

Heck maybe in the next 20-30 years we might see a skyway along Hennepin that connects MCTC and ends a block or two short and transitions into a nice walkway into Loring park? A more direct skyway route from the Walker Art Center into downtown may become a reality then.

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Wedgeguy » October 2nd, 2014, 1:59 pm

My understanding is that the city wants to keep the skyways to the central core, or business district. This is years ago so thing could very well have changed. But:
1. Skyways could not be build in the warehouse district, which in those day would be from west of Hennepin and north of 6th. This is before we had a North Loop.
2. Skyways could not be built in the Mill District due to the historic nature of the area.
3. Skyways would not go east of 5th. Part of why we have a wall of parking structures that line 5th Ave. They wanted to keep the core of the city compact and walkable.

We now see 2 skyways west of 1st Ave, but are not considered in the warehouse district. I highly doubt the HPC will give a variance for anymore skyways to go north of Washington. We are now seeing the skyway to Wells Fargo Towers and the stadium. Because the city wants to expand the core to include DTE where they once shunned it. Any future skyways would require minimal changes to the exterior of a historic building. So those hoping for a skyway to the Armory, will I'm sure have a fight with the HPC. There will be some more blocks added to the skyway system. But they will pretty much stay out of residential neighborhoods.

Again, things change, I never thought I'd see a skyway across 1st Ave and any east of 5th, but times they do a change.

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby fehler » October 2nd, 2014, 2:34 pm

Does Minneapolis, in fact, have or need a "Skyways 2040" plan for future expansion?

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Lancestar2 » October 2nd, 2014, 2:52 pm

My understanding is that the city wants to keep the skyways to the central core, or business district. This is years ago so thing could very well have changed. But:
1. Skyways could not be build in the warehouse district, which in those day would be from west of Hennepin and north of 6th. This is before we had a North Loop.
2. Skyways could not be built in the Mill District due to the historic nature of the area.
3. Skyways would not go east of 5th. Part of why we have a wall of parking structures that line 5th Ave. They wanted to keep the core of the city compact and walkable.

We now see 2 skyways west of 1st Ave, but are not considered in the warehouse district. I highly doubt the HPC will give a variance for anymore skyways to go north of Washington. We are now seeing the skyway to Wells Fargo Towers and the stadium. Because the city wants to expand the core to include DTE where they once shunned it. Any future skyways would require minimal changes to the exterior of a historic building. So those hoping for a skyway to the Armory, will I'm sure have a fight with the HPC. There will be some more blocks added to the skyway system. But they will pretty much stay out of residential neighborhoods.

Again, things change, I never thought I'd see a skyway across 1st Ave and any east of 5th, but times they do a change.
Thanks for posting I didn't know about 1 and 3 being part of the plan. You mentioned the "city once shunned it" in downtown east, do you have any idea of what they now vision for a skyway network into downtown east? Would that mean that it's up to the developer to decide if they want a skyway connection and there won't be anymore resistance from the city in downtown east!? What does this mean for the rest of downtown east could we see further expansion (south of Washington Ave) in downtown East. Many of the empty parking lots could be developed by 2018 still right? Perhaps we will see more projects connecting into this new skyway segment?

In regards to the Armory lol, I won't even suggest a connection or discuss it much I'm sure the oddes are simply next to zero. However the skyway will have a connection to the "Yard" park where visitors can walk about a block to visit when that site is developed. Anything within 1-1.5 blocks of a skyway that has direct line of sight is close enough to provide safe climate controlled passage, so it will be connected enough. Just like the Guthrie, by the time you reach the end of the skyway at Chicago and Washington you will be able to see your destination before exiting the skyway to street level to cross the street. Same thing for the skyway down to they Yard.

Do we have any more ideas on what downtown East will look like? I always assumed it would be more residential but will we see more demand for office towers too? The Stadium is a nice addition that has been attracting new development however a bit farther south will we still see more demand in the next several years leading up the the super bowl? I never really though about downtown east's development to much before any insights on what we may see based on the demand's and zoning?

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Wedgeguy » October 2nd, 2014, 3:39 pm

Does Minneapolis, in fact, have or need a "Skyways 2040" plan for future expansion?
To answer your question first. No it does not. We have have plenty of blocks already attached to the skyways. Will more blocks be attached in the future? Yes we will. But I speculate that the city will define a barrier of how far out it can go in any direction. These things cost Hundreds of Thousands of $$$ each. They will have to be financed by private developers and so there will get to be a point where it not longer makes economic sense to build them.

Lancestar. the 3 points that I wrote were basically the vision of the city council in the 80's and 90's. So I don't get screamed at, MY vision of what I see for the skyways in DTE are 2 east west spines. One being thru the Wells Fargo Towers to the stadium. That skyways may go 2 blocks further east, But not past the 3rd/4th street depression. There will possibly be skyways built into the blocks north of the skyway. Basically the blocks between 3rd and Washington, east to 10th st. There will not be a skyway crossing Washington, as the Mill District goes up to 11th north of Washington. I don't see any skyways going east of 10th south of Washington.
The 2nd spine going east would be in between 6th and 7th streets. It would run from Center Village east until it connects with the proposed HCMC Clinic. There it would cross to the Red Building of HCMC and the system would basically terminate into the hospital. This would allow skyways into the blocks south of 7th, but they would have to drop to street level there as south of there is older residential brownstones across 8th, which I would hope would be incorporated into any future neighborhood residential proposals. There are 2 blocks north of 6th and would would get skyway also But the Commons would end any skyways going north out of those blocks. You will have the Normandy Inn block which can be connected thru CV and you will for sure see KA wanting at least part of their buildings connected to the skyway. That is pretty much your southeast boundaries.

Again this is all my own vision that I think will work for the city on the east side. If it happens that way then I'll be a visionary, if not, LOL I'll be named a schlepp!! Check out Google Maps and you can see what I'm thinking. You may not agree, but it is a point of reference for any discussions.

Lancestar2

Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Lancestar2 » October 2nd, 2014, 6:37 pm

Does Minneapolis, in fact, have or need a "Skyways 2040" plan for future expansion?
To answer your question first. No it does not. We have have plenty of blocks already attached to the skyways. Will more blocks be attached in the future? Yes we will. But I speculate that the city will define a barrier of how far out it can go in any direction. These things cost Hundreds of Thousands of $$$ each. They will have to be financed by private developers and so there will get to be a point where it not longer makes economic sense to build them.

Lancestar. the 3 points that I wrote were basically the vision of the city council in the 80's and 90's. So I don't get screamed at, MY vision of what I see for the skyways in DTE are 2 east west spines. One being thru the Wells Fargo Towers to the stadium. That skyways may go 2 blocks further east, But not past the 3rd/4th street depression. There will possibly be skyways built into the blocks north of the skyway. Basically the blocks between 3rd and Washington, east to 10th st. There will not be a skyway crossing Washington, as the Mill District goes up to 11th north of Washington. I don't see any skyways going east of 10th south of Washington.
The 2nd spine going east would be in between 6th and 7th streets. It would run from Center Village east until it connects with the proposed HCMC Clinic. There it would cross to the Red Building of HCMC and the system would basically terminate into the hospital. This would allow skyways into the blocks south of 7th, but they would have to drop to street level there as south of there is older residential brownstones across 8th, which I would hope would be incorporated into any future neighborhood residential proposals. There are 2 blocks north of 6th and would would get skyway also But the Commons would end any skyways going north out of those blocks. You will have the Normandy Inn block which can be connected thru CV and you will for sure see KA wanting at least part of their buildings connected to the skyway. That is pretty much your southeast boundaries.

Again this is all my own vision that I think will work for the city on the east side. If it happens that way then I'll be a visionary, if not, LOL I'll be named a schlepp!! Check out Google Maps and you can see what I'm thinking. You may not agree, but it is a point of reference for any discussions.
I really do like your vision you suggest. I mostly have the same vision, although as more and more empty parking lots get developed I would think most all would try to connect into the system and eventually creating a design that looks more like downtown west again. Though instead of ending at HCMC perhaps a endpoint into Elliot park though a walking friendly trail from HCMC's public Skyway section into the park would be just as nice. Also my vision may run between 8th and 9th to allow for a bit more accessibility to farther south, while each block North (in downtown East) will still have skyway Access within a 2 block walk. Of course it may be a long time before we see most of these parking lots developed so we have some time to convince the city to support our similar plan. haha

Also A question to you and to anyone who wishes to respond. People have always stated that the skyway takes away from the street atmosphere by sucking up traffic and retail space onto a 2nd floor. My question is will the skyway network design ever work in the cities benefit in regards atmosphere? Meaning at what downtown population numbers would the city be able to support a FULLY OCCUPIED street and skyway traffic, and retail? I believe the city is considering a full buildout will include 110,000ish people. Would more density be needed than what they plan in order for our downtown to fully support both transit ways?

Also is there a "cheat" that could be done by creating density in the surrounding neighboorhoods and then attracting them to downtown to support the retail and downtown atmosphere. I always assumed that Minneapolis was at a huge advantage by having a "two tower level street" Had New York City invested in a skyway network wouldn't they now be able to benefit from it greatly? ...Decreased street traffic, more retail space, less crowding and better maximization of space. Obviously they are not going to build a skyway network lol but my point isn't there going to be some point in time where Minneapolis has a dense enough downtown where all street level and skyway level retail will be fully occupied enough to create a beyond a doubt healthy downtown packed with busy skyway corridors and streets?

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Wedgeguy » October 2nd, 2014, 7:35 pm

Lancestar, NYC is a whole different animal. We started our skyways in the 60's. Our downtown core was quite small in many regards. Not as spread out as other metropolitan core if similar size. Part of the restriction of the early skyways was to development to be on the skyways and if they restricted where it went they could try and control the core from sprawl. You look at Dallas, Denver, and Houston, you see large towers blocks a part with a see of parking lots in between them. Since the 80's we have tried to keep cars and parking to the exterior of the core. Thus creating more space to build building in the core. The other thing you will see is land around that exterior tends to be cheaper than in the central core so you have Operation Centers, Wells Fargo. Amerprise, and other build them where they were still close to the main office, but cheaper to own. We are now doing that again with land in DTE, North Loop, and Mill District. We have easy walkable access to DT, but we had now away as far as pricing goes. But as these fill up, land prices will go up some more. and that advantage disappears, but the location of being within the city is still there. Unless you have real density like NYC or Hong Kong where the street are jammed packed. I don't see it working that both will be equally used. As it is, some of the skyways DT are not wide enough for a busy rush hour. In newer building they have wider skyways, but like the Northstar and the Baker Block they are fairly narrow for a jam of people all trying to get thru at the same time. It would take 50 years and some Vancouver skyline to get the density that you are proposing. Not going to happen for quite awhile if ever. I will say that we have done a much better job with anticipating where future skyways will go when we build new building and try and have accommodations for them. But that does not always work. Like I said in an earlier post. you have to have some economic sense for there to be a skyway. When you have to lay out close to a Million for each one, it get less appealing to whom ever would have to pay for it. In MPLS the skyways are privately own.

To answer that question on the skyways sucking the life out of the streets. If you have ever seen scenes from NYC the street of Manhattan are nearly shoulder to shoulder in some section of Manhattan. WHY?? Because the street is their only option to get to their appointment, to the subway station, to get home. Here we have 200,000 workers that have an option of going outside to get where they want to go, or walk thru a skyway. If 50,000 use the street, but 150,000 use the skyway. Where would you locate your business. Probably the skyway, unless you are a food vender as now people will skip past you and eat out on the street at the food trucks. IF we did not have skyways those 200,000 would all be walking on the street level and the stores would be facing the street and not faced inward like the mess we have now.

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Lancestar2 » October 2nd, 2014, 8:26 pm

Some great points Wedgeguy, thought I do have a few follow up questions. According other online sites NYC has a density of about 70,000 per sq mile. Isn't our downtown inside the freeway look mostly only 1-1.5 sq miles? If we include North loop and Warehouse dist. maybe were at about 2 sq miles? So would that mean we would have a simular density downtown with a population around 140,000 or slightly under at 110,000. Unless my math is wrong, I am awful at basic math anyways lol. What downtown residential population numbers required to have a similar density that NYC has? 200,000 residents 300,000 more less?

You mentioned numbers of 200,000 office works and if 25% (50,000) used the street and 75% used the skyway there would still be a good amount of street usage but may not be enough to support a complete street level retail buildout downtown. At what numbers do you think would be enough to support each level? Also do you have any insights into the breakdown of what percentage uses the skyway vs the street? Issues with smaller skyways limit capacity and would encourage more people to use the sidewalks instead. So perhaps during the winter many people may wish to use the sidewalks to get out of the crowded skyway and we will have a better divide between usage of both transit routes?

Most of this is a hypothetical question and may be unrealistic for Minneapolis downtown to achieve such density in our lifetimes, however I am just curious as to what that "sweet spot" number of downtown residents would be for downtown to be able to support both a healthy street and skyway level. I don't travel much but have no other city ever achieved this task before? I remember some city in Texas having a similar style network but was much more spaced out if I remember correctly.

Another follow up question, what average floor count would be needed to achieve that density (realistic or not) in downtown? That way if a building is created below that threshold floor number and having retail on 1st and 2nd floors we would know it is taking away from downtown being able to support both networks. I know I am full of questions haha.. If you enjoy answering I much appreciate it as always, I am a very curious young adult haha!

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Tcmetro » October 2nd, 2014, 10:09 pm

Manhattan has a very dense core, but the reason it feels busier there is because their core is ringed by high-density, walkable neighborhoods where owning a car is expensive and not worth the hassle. In Minneapolis, the core is ringed by freeways and industrial zones, and the immediately adjacent neighborhoods are low-density and owning a car is very easy. To simplify, the core of Manhattan meshes with residential neighborhoods, whereas the core of Minneapolis is walled off from where people live, by busy roads and land uses.

If Minneapolis had a high density in the neighborhoods surrounding Downtown in the 1950s, skyways would have never happened. The streets would have already been the focus point for businesses, as that's where everyone would have already been traveling. Minneapolis in the 1950s and 60s was very smart to implement the skyway system. It helped keep the jobs from moving out to suburban office parks a la Saint Louis and Detroit, as they offered a means to navigate the city in a climate controlled manner. This probably gave Downtown Minneapolis a competitive edge over other cities because the skyways allowed access to a variety of lunchtime restaurants and fostered easy contacts between businesses in different buildings in the core. Skyways will never permeate the North Loop or the Mill District or Loring Park or Elliot Park, as those neighborhoods are too low-rise to accommodate them and because they don't attract the all day traffic necessary to create the demand for them. Any such skyway would be primarily used by commuters.

This being said, as much as the skyways detract from the street level, I think that the skyway system remains an important part of downtown, and a few extensions should be pursued. I think that HCMC and MCTC should be linked up to the network, and perhaps some missing links in the core should be built. We also need more street-skyway interaction in the core. I think it would be very nice to see some projects similar to the proposed IDS Nicollet Mall staircase connection to the skyway throughout downtown. I also think that large portals should be built on the ends of the network. We could have four or five of these large "portals", one at the Mill District, one at Elliot Park, one at Loring Park, and one in the North Loop. These "portals" could have some sort of market place at the end, preferably near high-volume bus stops. I think these "portals" could become important nodes in the neighborhoods on the edge of the core. I also think a skyway connection to Target Field Station will become useful once the Duluth and Chicago lines are in service.

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby xandrex » October 3rd, 2014, 8:26 am

Manhattan has a very dense core, but the reason it feels busier there is because their core is ringed by high-density, walkable neighborhoods where owning a car is expensive and not worth the hassle. In Minneapolis, the core is ringed by freeways and industrial zones, and the immediately adjacent neighborhoods are low-density and owning a car is very easy. To simplify, the core of Manhattan meshes with residential neighborhoods, whereas the core of Minneapolis is walled off from where people live, by busy roads and land uses.



This being said, as much as the skyways detract from the street level, I think that the skyway system remains an important part of downtown, and a few extensions should be pursued.
New York's true CBD (Midtown) isn't just busy because there are a lot of people living around there. In fact, most New Yorkers I know try to avoid Midtown as much as possible (unless they work there). Midtown is overrun with tourists, which means there will always be people out on the street. Go down to the Financial District and the story is different. Other than the area around One World Trade Center (where tourists flock), it's pretty quiet.

I think the skyways are a critical part of living in this part of the country. Our winters are bitterly cold and snowy, our summers are hot and sticky. I take the bus downtown and get off on Hennepin before entering the skyway system at City Center to walk to my job on the east side of downtown. There really aren't any buses I could take to get any closer (other than the much slower Nicollet Mall ones, I suppose, and even then, it would save me a block). Without the skyways, I'd probably grit my teeth and pay the extra amount for parking. I'd rather not have to trudge through block after block of discolored snow or get covered in sweat just trying to get to the office. And I know I'm not the only one who feels that way.

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby MNdible » October 3rd, 2014, 8:55 am

Why do you hate urbanism?

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby xandrex » October 3rd, 2014, 9:38 am

Why do you hate urbanism?
I clearly just like driving on stroads, probably cussing at a biker as I drive too close to them as I make my way to locations that aren't places on my way to asphalt gardens (parking lots, otherwise known as God's gift to humanity) because 'Merica. :mrgreen:

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby blobs » October 3rd, 2014, 11:11 am

I would like to see the skyways system expanded with room for bicycling and walking and better street connections. Imagine year round bicycling through an indoor skyway network. Would be a unique and awesome draw to our area.

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby VAStationDude » October 3rd, 2014, 11:29 am

Terrible idea. Bikes and peds do not mix. Bikes belong in traffic


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