Minneapolis Skyway System

[acs]

Agreed that it gets a little disjointed along the fringes, but between 9th and 5th all of the blocks are connected in pretty much a grid. Just like the streets below, but going from mid-block to mid-block.

[xandrex]

There's some weaving in my skyway walk to work, but I still shave off probably half of the time it would otherwise take me.

[RailBaronYarr]

^That also assumes a downtown where streets include a bunch of racing cars on 3-lane one ways with long lights to ensure a high LOS. In St Paul, I cut half the time off a skyway walk in spots by just walking the street and jaywalking the usually very empty streets.

I've definitely toned down my skyway distaste. I still don't think the city should be in the business of spending millions to extend the system when our sidewalks/streetscapes are in such poor condition. I also think our winter is worse than other areas without extensive tunnel/skyway systems for maybe a month (or two?) a year with far more tolerable summers than many as well, which is why we have quite a few walkable districts without skyways (and why even on nice-ish spring and very nice summer days the skyways actually are still riddled with people). If our residential density downtown was much higher, we'd probably see a whole lot of ground-level retail for the hours CBD employers don't feel like staffing their buildings, and a natural split of business-hour-oriented retail / resident retail would emerge (particularly with some nudging via city codes), and that seems like a good path for Minneapolis to me.

The Lileks piece was good, but seems odd to use words like 'suck' against opponents when he uses such hyperbole in his posts to make a point (maybe that was his point?). Also, for a guy who clearly values our historic buildings and the way our city functioned when they were in their heyday, seems like an odd take.

[xandrex]

I thought someone might bring up LOS stuff. And yeah, if we had nice roads, it probably would shave time off walking outside.

But I don't know that light times are particularly onerous. I have to cross the street twice to get into the skyways (get off at Hennepin and 5th coming from the north, enter at City Center) and it's pretty rare to have my total wait between those two exceed a minute. I don't know how much you could realistically shorten the light cycle (I actually don't, I'm not a traffic engineer by any means), but even in European cities that were quite walkable I've experienced similar or longer waits.

I'd say the longer you're going, the better the skyway system, which probably pretty obvious. I start in Downtown West and end my journey in Downtown East. You'd have to make pretty radical changes to downtown to make my post-transit, on-foot portion quicker by street than what is effectively a foot traffic highway above.

[FISHMANPET]

I'm going to throw out a far more broad issue and thus generate potentially more inflammatory comments. And I think it's good.

The skyways - along with massive shopping malls - operate as a "quasi-public" space. I submit that if certain forces have their way and believe that privatization of public services (and even spaces) should supersede the public realm - in the meager and often unfounded belief of better efficiencies - then we face a horror worse than Orwell's "1984."

As it stands, you can be ejected from the Mall of America - or any skyway - for nearly any reason. That is because the Constitutional guarantee of free speech does not apply to private spaces, with some exceptions.

I have a love/hate relationship with the skyways. If they are meant to be a public connective tissue for the city then they need to be operated under government (i.e. You and Me) decree. And people using them would thus be protected by the US Constitution. If they are meant to be voluntary private connections amongst buildings then people can't complain about the irregularity of hours or the varying rules of use.

I've re-read the first page of this thread a few times, and this quote from Avian just sounds incredibly prophetic, given the issues we had specifically at the Mall and then also in the St Paul skyway.

When I started this thread I was anti-skyway, and I think from an academic theoretical standpoint I still hold that view. But from a perspective of a human being with thoughts and emotions, it's fricken cold sometimes. And basically I'm glad I'm just a dude on the internet throwing words into the either about skyways, rather than having to make actual real world decisions about them. Because man, I don't know.

[Michael]

Lileks Defends the Skyways:

http://www.startribune.com/local/minnea ... 85771.html

Loved this.

So, every day I walk to/from the SOO Line to Union Plaza. When the weather is nice I absolutely walk up 5th street, when not I take the Skyway. Same is true when going to Target, the Theatres, Restaurants, and (soon) Walgreens. I biked somewhere in the area of 500 miles last summer, but I can assure you the bike is hung up now & waiting for warmer days. From my standpoint I would argue the Skyway system has actually reduced my use of gas/carbon emissions as if I have the option to walk in inclement weather (i.e. frakkin cold) instead of firing up the car, I do.

Admittedly I've been a Minneapolis resident for only 18 Months/Two Winters now but I still don't get the Skyway Hate. It's been a big part of what makes downtown great for me.

[mattaudio]

Counterpoint: The social costs of a skyway world
Our enclosed sidewalks separate us and sort us into classes — not necessarily for the better.
http://www.startribune.com/opinion/comm ... 92251.html

[xandrex]

I think I'd buy the "class separation" argument more if my walk through the skyways didn't involve multiple run-ins with both the homeless and those who would appear to be working class.

And for what it's worth, the people using the skyways the most where I work are not the "suburban car drivers" that the article paints them as, but the bus riders who get dropped off on Hennepin/Nicollet and have to hoof over to our DTE office. The suburban and urban drivers park in the ramp next door and walk across the street.

[mattaudio]

Regarding Gaviidae II, CenterPoint, Nic/5th, Opus/Powers, etc... Why, again, was there not a hallway carved out of the eastern 15 feet of the Nieman Marcus space, allowing for a skyway over 5th St to Nic on 5th? https://goo.gl/maps/8QFIl

[Silophant]

Probably because Centerpoint was already cranky that the city wouldn't let them ignore the 1st-floor retail regulations.

Fantasy time: Xcel buys out Centerpoint's MN operations, and puts in a public skyway to enable easy connections between that building and the rest of HQ.

Disclaimer: I've never heard the slightest hint of a rumor to suggest that that might happen.

[David Greene]

And for what it's worth, the people using the skyways the most where I work are not the "suburban car drivers" that the article paints them as, but the bus riders who get dropped off on Hennepin/Nicollet and have to hoof over to our DTE office. The suburban and urban drivers park in the ramp next door and walk across the street.

Agreed. That was an odd and unhelpful editorial all around. The cause of equity isn't helped by making provably false claims.

[mattaudio]

The cause of equity isn't helped by making provably false claims.

Does that apply to the SWLRT thread too?
ZING!

[FISHMANPET]

Yes the homeless are in the skyways. But the single mother of 5 toting her projeny around via bus aren't in the skyway, they're on the street, in the cold, waiting for the bus. For that matter, the problem of homelessness is in many cases more about mental health and social services than it is about economic opportunity.

[xandrex]

I mean, unless we're going to add bus stops in the skyways for floating buses, then yeah, people will have to wait outside on the sidewalk (but we really should improve stops...that would benefit all transit riders). But mothers can (and do) bring their kids inside the closest skyway-connected building and go from there.

[Lancestar2]

I mean, unless we're going to add bus stops in the skyways for floating buses, then yeah, people will have to wait outside on the sidewalk (but we really should improve stops...that would benefit all transit riders). But mothers can (and do) bring their kids inside the closest skyway-connected building and go from there.

...well have you ever seen the Apple Valley transit center bus stop? It has a skyway, it has indoor bus shelter, it allows people to wait in a warmer climate. So no need to be so dramatic with flying buses, I suggest you google existing bus stops formats before you start making things up

[Record Machine]

The skyways are also a fantastic recruiting tool when attracting out of state talent.

[xandrex]

I mean, unless we're going to add bus stops in the skyways for floating buses, then yeah, people will have to wait outside on the sidewalk (but we really should improve stops...that would benefit all transit riders). But mothers can (and do) bring their kids inside the closest skyway-connected building and go from there.

...well have you ever seen the Apple Valley transit center bus stop? It has a skyway, it has indoor bus shelter, it allows people to wait in a warmer climate. So no need to be so dramatic with flying buses, I suggest you google existing bus stops formats before you start making things up

Hence, I advovated for improving bus stops (actual shelters, heat, updated signage) above. I'm quite aware of both fancy stations that exist and the need for much more ROW than Minneapolis allows for said station. You certainly aren't advocating for skyway connected bus stops on every block, are you?

[IllogicalJake]

I mean, unless we're going to add bus stops in the skyways for floating buses, then yeah, people will have to wait outside on the sidewalk (but we really should improve stops...that would benefit all transit riders). But mothers can (and do) bring their kids inside the closest skyway-connected building and go from there.

...well have you ever seen the Apple Valley transit center bus stop? It has a skyway, it has indoor bus shelter, it allows people to wait in a warmer climate. So no need to be so dramatic with flying buses, I suggest you google existing bus stops formats before you start making things up

Hence, I advovated for improving bus stops (actual shelters, heat, updated signage) above. I'm quite aware of both fancy stations that exist and the need for much more ROW than Minneapolis allows for said station. You certainly aren't advocating for skyway connected bus stops on every block, are you?

It'd be a pipedream at least to have them in the Marq2 bus stop areas. Hoards venture into the nearest skyway-connected building every day from those blocks. But realistically? Yeahhhh...

The skyways are also a fantastic recruiting tool when attracting out of state talent.

Hey I'm kinda one of those.

[Silophant]

It'd be a pipedream at least to have them in the Marq2 bus stop areas. Hoards venture into the nearest skyway-connected building every day from those blocks.

Eh, in theory, with Marq2 turning into Orange Line stations, we should get full BRT stops like that at least every other block. I'm betting on the outdoor aBRT style stops, though.

[Lancestar2]

Indeed having some skyway to bus stop connections would be a wonderful way to encourage more transit usage. If car commuters can travel from a warm-ish parking ramp directly into the skyway why shouldn't bus commuters? Of course Xandrex not on every block the skyway is a limited system and does not reach every block. Plus many connections would be redundant and unnecessary costly. Allowing at least a few would greatly benefit commuters.

I believe Calgary, Alberta in Canada has a much better integrated skyway network (+15 walkway) considering our network is mostly private businesses would have to be on board along with some city funds so not an easy task. Yet busiest routes should have at least one drop off point with direct skyway access. Imagine that commuters could drive from there home garage into a parking ramp with direct access like Red line does and arrive into the downtown skyway without even having to step outside. It sounds pretty appealing being able to commute to work in sub zero temps and not be left out in the cold waiting for your bus. Less car commuters means less demand for parking spaces which helps promote a more urban downtown. Sounds like an idea that could be studied to see it's feasibility.