Minneapolis Skyway System

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Nathan
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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Nathan » March 12th, 2014, 10:55 am

right it's not that they don't get snow or aren't cold, but we have more days between melting days, our snow and cold stay longer than basically any other major city.

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby John » March 12th, 2014, 11:13 am

Yeah yeah. But both Toronto and Montreal have many winter nights where it gets below zero Fahrenheit. I've been to Toronto in January when it was in the teens. Both the underground tunnel system and the street level were bustling with people. The difference is those two cities appear to encourage better street frontage than Minneapolis. That's what needed here.

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby MNdible » March 12th, 2014, 11:32 am

Not intending to dismiss your point, John, which I think is well taken. There are good examples of integrating between the street and skyway levels in Minneapolis, and we do seem to be getting better at it in more recent buildings. But on the whole, I'd agree that this remains the biggest flaw in the system.

I just get a bit irked when people (including people who otherwise say intelligent, thoughtful things) don't recognize that there's a huge difference between having an average monthly high of 34 degrees or 16 degrees. I can't tell you how many times I've heard, "But they do it in Copenhagen, why can't we do it hear?"

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby mnmike » March 12th, 2014, 12:28 pm

As a weather nerd...I must contribute this to the off topic conversation. Toronto is a bit warmer on average, they are south and on a lake, more like a Chicago climate, and the difference is significant...Montreal, however, is very close in the temperature department, actually they have colder winter time highs on average than we do, and the cold season lasts longer there. Their average high is about 10 degrees colder than here for todays date, for example. They also get A LOT more snow than we do on average (30 inches more a year). I just knew someone would say, "but no, Minneapolis is the coldest and has the worst climate". Irritates me. Montreal is right there with us actually...they tend to keep more snow on the ground longer than we do, too. In summation, both places suck in the winter...and no, Montreal isn't warmer. I'd say Montreal probably wins in the misery department due to the amount of snow they tend to keep around for a longer period than us. Ok, carry on

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby talindsay » March 12th, 2014, 2:38 pm

Yeah, but they have better food and a sexier language so they're probably not as miserable.

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby mnmike » March 12th, 2014, 3:15 pm

I don't know...the Quebecois seem pretty miserable and grumpy! :)

But I digress...

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Tcmetro » March 12th, 2014, 4:59 pm

Vive le Quebec !

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Lancestar2 » September 4th, 2014, 12:11 pm

I'm not sure who created these maps...

Image

I thought they were really a great idea and seem rather well done. I am just curious, what would be the steps needed to somehow implement some basic changes into the skyway system.


1. Create some type of organized body or board to help encourage skyway tenants and buildings to comply with suggestions/policies to encourage uniformity and decrease confusion.
2. Implement an official skyway color walkway scheme
3. Encourage Skyway color signage to match / build new way finding signs and gather funding to be able to donate them to the existing building provided they agree to only display signs agreed upon by the board.
4. Encourage Skyway uniformity in signs highlighting all street to skyway access points, way finding signs to popular places, and more detailed information on maps.


I understand the skyway is mostly private however it's in the best interest of everybody to have an organized system planned out. Also how would such an organization gather funds? Honestly with all the talk about better Skyway to Street connectivity simply having signs that state "Skyway" on doors would allow people to know they have access to the skyway. Seems much cheaper than building glass tube elevators.

I would imagine if buildings were given free signs they would quickly sign on provided the placement didn't destroy the look to there beautiful building. Also how much would such a rebranding cost? Also would it have much of an effect if any? Thoughts?

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby HiawathaGuy » September 4th, 2014, 12:30 pm

Ideally Minneapolis should emulate Toronto's PATH, although even that has its problems.

Path signage (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PATH_(Toronto))

In 1987, City Council adopted a unified wayfinding system throughout the network. The design firms Gottschalk+Ash International and Muller Design Associates were hired to design and implement the overall system in consultation with a diverse group of land owners, City staff and stakeholders. A colour-coded system with directional cues was deployed in the early 1990s. Within the various buildings, pedestrians can find a PATH system map, plus cardinal directions (P (red) for south, A (orange) for west, T (blue) for north, H (yellow) for east) on ceiling signs at selected junctions.

The signage can be hard to find inside some of the various connected buildings. Building owners concerned about losing customers to neighbouring buildings insisted that the signs not dominate their buildings, or their own signage system. The city relented and the result is the current system. Many complain that the system is hard to navigate.

PATH history (from: http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/conte ... d60f89RCRD)

The first underground path in Toronto originated in 1900 when the T Eaton Co. joined its main store at 178 Yonge St. and its bargain annex by tunnels. By 1917 there were five tunnels in the downtown core. With the opening of Union Station in 1927, an underground tunnel was built to connect it to the Royal York Hotel (now known as the Fairmont Royal York). The real growth of PATH began in the 1970s when a tunnel was built to connect the Richmond-Adelaide and Sheraton Centres.

In 1987, City Council adopted the recommendation that the City become the co-ordinating agency of PATH and pay for the system-wide costs of designing a signage program.

In 1988, design firms Gottschalk, Ash International, and Keith Muller Ltd. were retained in by the City of Toronto to apply the design concept for PATH.

PATH's name and logo are registered to the City of Toronto. The City co-ordinates and facilitates the directional signage, maps and identity markers throughout the system.

Each segment of the walkway system is owned and controlled by the owner of the property through which it runs. There are about 35 corporations involved.

In the early 1990s, signage for PATH was developed to provide pedestrians with better ease of use and functionality. The signage enhances PATH's visibility and identity, ultimately increasing its use, attracting more people to downtown Toronto, and drawing more businesses there.

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Lancestar2 » September 6th, 2014, 1:15 pm

Ideally Minneapolis should emulate Toronto's PATH, although even that has its problems.

Path signage (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PATH_(Toronto))

In 1987, City Council adopted a unified wayfinding system throughout the network. The design firms Gottschalk+Ash International and Muller Design Associates were hired to design and implement the overall system in consultation with a diverse group of land owners, City staff and stakeholders. A colour-coded system with directional cues was deployed in the early 1990s. Within the various buildings, pedestrians can find a PATH system map, plus cardinal directions (P (red) for south, A (orange) for west, T (blue) for north, H (yellow) for east) on ceiling signs at selected junctions.

The signage can be hard to find inside some of the various connected buildings. Building owners concerned about losing customers to neighbouring buildings insisted that the signs not dominate their buildings, or their own signage system. The city relented and the result is the current system. Many complain that the system is hard to navigate.

PATH history (from: http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/conte ... d60f89RCRD)

The first underground path in Toronto originated in 1900 when the T Eaton Co. joined its main store at 178 Yonge St. and its bargain annex by tunnels. By 1917 there were five tunnels in the downtown core. With the opening of Union Station in 1927, an underground tunnel was built to connect it to the Royal York Hotel (now known as the Fairmont Royal York). The real growth of PATH began in the 1970s when a tunnel was built to connect the Richmond-Adelaide and Sheraton Centres.

In 1987, City Council adopted the recommendation that the City become the co-ordinating agency of PATH and pay for the system-wide costs of designing a signage program.

In 1988, design firms Gottschalk, Ash International, and Keith Muller Ltd. were retained in by the City of Toronto to apply the design concept for PATH.

PATH's name and logo are registered to the City of Toronto. The City co-ordinates and facilitates the directional signage, maps and identity markers throughout the system.

Each segment of the walkway system is owned and controlled by the owner of the property through which it runs. There are about 35 corporations involved.

In the early 1990s, signage for PATH was developed to provide pedestrians with better ease of use and functionality. The signage enhances PATH's visibility and identity, ultimately increasing its use, attracting more people to downtown Toronto, and drawing more businesses there.
wow that's really neat, thanks for sharing. Someday I'll have to go visit there Path network for myself. Thought I don't think a color direction is more helpful than having a color route between major attractions. Thought I think it surly helps. I still have a hard time connecting locations in the skyway with locations on the street. I always wonder what tourist think when they explore them for the first time. That and I wonder if other cities like NYC ever considered building their own skyway network and what impact that would have had on there roads with decreasing congestion if any.

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Michael » September 6th, 2014, 2:17 pm

I always wonder what tourist think when they explore them for the first time. That and I wonder if other cities like NYC ever considered building their own skyway network and what impact that would have had on there roads with decreasing congestion if any.
How about the viewpoint of someone who moved downtown into a Skyway-Connected residence (Soo Line) 11 months ago with no prior exposure to Minneapolis? ;)

I've found that the Skyway system is one of the city's greatest features. Going through our first winter here, being connected to work, a reasonable selection of stores, the LRT, and entertainment turned out to be BIG deal for myself and my wife. Enough so that if we do decide to move out of the Soo Line for some of the other residence options that are in the pipeline downtown being Skyway-Connected will be a prerequisite.

That's not to say it's perfect. It's rather obvious that it came about organically and attempting to discern the actual layout and routes to take to get anywhere is pretty much an effort in self-taught determination. My wife and I really didn't find the maps that were available very helpful when trying to line oneself up with where you actually are and comparing maps to something you actually want to go to (for example, say I wanted to eat at Hell's Kitchen, good luck lining that up with any mapping out there as it's really oriented towards how to get to building, not a business or an attraction).

Easy access from street-level to the Skyway could definitely be better, especially since on evenings and weekends sections of the Skyway get closed off, breaking up direct routes to many locations. And speaking of that, those closures really hamper a growing night-life experience.

Suffice to say their are many ways it could be improved, but having spent time in many cities that have inclement weather as part of their seasonal cycle, I don't think some people who have "grown up" with the existence of the system realize what a genuine asset it is and will be as more people begin living downtown 24/365.

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Lancestar2 » September 6th, 2014, 4:30 pm

I always wonder what tourist think when they explore them for the first time. That and I wonder if other cities like NYC ever considered building their own skyway network and what impact that would have had on there roads with decreasing congestion if any.
How about the viewpoint of someone who moved downtown into a Skyway-Connected residence (Soo Line) 11 months ago with no prior exposure to Minneapolis? ;)

I've found that the Skyway system is one of the city's greatest features. Going through our first winter here, being connected to work, a reasonable selection of stores, the LRT, and entertainment turned out to be BIG deal for myself and my wife. Enough so that if we do decide to move out of the Soo Line for some of the other residence options that are in the pipeline downtown being Skyway-Connected will be a prerequisite.

That's not to say it's perfect. It's rather obvious that it came about organically and attempting to discern the actual layout and routes to take to get anywhere is pretty much an effort in self-taught determination. My wife and I really didn't find the maps that were available very helpful when trying to line oneself up with where you actually are and comparing maps to something you actually want to go to (for example, say I wanted to eat at Hell's Kitchen, good luck lining that up with any mapping out there as it's really oriented towards how to get to building, not a business or an attraction).

Easy access from street-level to the Skyway could definitely be better, especially since on evenings and weekends sections of the Skyway get closed off, breaking up direct routes to many locations. And speaking of that, those closures really hamper a growing night-life experience.

Suffice to say their are many ways it could be improved, but having spent time in many cities that have inclement weather as part of their seasonal cycle, I don't think some people who have "grown up" with the existence of the system realize what a genuine asset it is and will be as more people begin living downtown 24/365.
Thanks for your viewpoint! I'm glad to see an example of a person being expose to the system and considering it an asset, and now a requirement! I do think your right it's a huge asset now and will be more so in the future.

Downtown East project will really increase the numbers of residents with skyway access right outside there apartment door. Plus with the still unnamed grocery store with skyway access just blocks away, I think were about to start seeing even more residential usage of the skyway system. I am curious, on your opinion as to what are the negative features of the existing system. (besides the mapping) In the future what changes to the existing system do you think would greatly improve the system for residents (for workers too but focusing on the needs of residents mostly) Also do you travel all sections of the skyway or are there segments you never been to yet or rarely go? Also what places downtown would you wish to be connected via the skyway in the future, ideally places that have a great benefit for the community and focusing on making the skyway more convenient for residents.

Not many people speak favorably of the skyway network so we will have to speak softly as to not attract there negativity! ;)

I think having a skyway connection to the riverfront would be a huge asset. Similar to the style of how Hyatt connects to Loring Park via the loring greenway. Having a big green space on the north end would be a huge asset in attracting more residents. Besides that connecting to HCMC and downtown east would also be a nice way to increase residents using the skyway network by giving them access.

Shortly after I moved downtown I started looking for places to live that had direct access to the skyway and I can sure say that there is a massive amount of housing options now than there was just 5 years ago! Still not many dog friendly places thought.

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby TommyT » September 6th, 2014, 5:06 pm

I've found www.skywaymyway.com to be helpful

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Avian » September 6th, 2014, 10:32 pm

I will echo Michael's post. Yes, I do have reservations about the tension between the system and the street life. But when I lived at the Churchill Apartments some years ago I can say I was absolutely delighted that I could walk across the city in my sneakers, shorts and a t-shirt when it was either 20 below zero or 98 degrees and 80% humidity and be perfectly comfortable. I could grab a pizza, buy a Brooks Brothers suit, watch a movie, get a decent sandwich, an expensive steak or a Tanqueray & tonic halfway across town and not even think about the weather.

But here's the thing...


If Minneapolis really wants to create a remarkable urban experience for downtown residents, workers and visitors, then the skyways need to be accessible 24/7/365. No restrictions whatsoever. Our culture allows people to live any way they see fit. There are people who live on the skyways who work 1st, 2nd and 3rd shifts and also NO shifts. There are not just 9-5 office workers downtown. For years I worked in a very high-stress creative industry where I sometimes had to come back to the office at 1 AM to shepard a project due at 8 AM for international clients, because their deadlines were six time zones away. I couldn't use the skyway for that. Instead, I had to drive 8 blocks in bad weather, park for several hours and drive back home, even though I could have walked the route in 10 minutes had the skyways been open those odd hours.

If the skyways are - at the very least - quasi-public spaces, then they need to be available at all hours without restriction. Just like the streets are.

“Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something.”
― Plato

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Michael » September 7th, 2014, 10:07 am

Thanks for your viewpoint! I'm glad to see an example of a person being expose to the system and considering it an asset, and now a requirement! I do think your right it's a huge asset now and will be more so in the future.

Downtown East project will really increase the numbers of residents with skyway access right outside there apartment door. Plus with the still unnamed grocery store with skyway access just blocks away, I think were about to start seeing even more residential usage of the skyway system. I am curious, on your opinion as to what are the negative features of the existing system. (besides the mapping) In the future what changes to the existing system do you think would greatly improve the system for residents (for workers too but focusing on the needs of residents mostly) Also do you travel all sections of the skyway or are there segments you never been to yet or rarely go? Also what places downtown would you wish to be connected via the skyway in the future, ideally places that have a great benefit for the community and focusing on making the skyway more convenient for residents.

Not many people speak favorably of the skyway network so we will have to speak softly as to not attract there negativity! ;)

I think having a skyway connection to the riverfront would be a huge asset. Similar to the style of how Hyatt connects to Loring Park via the loring greenway. Having a big green space on the north end would be a huge asset in attracting more residents. Besides that connecting to HCMC and downtown east would also be a nice way to increase residents using the skyway network by giving them access.

Shortly after I moved downtown I started looking for places to live that had direct access to the skyway and I can sure say that there is a massive amount of housing options now than there was just 5 years ago! Still not many dog friendly places thought.
Evelia (my Wife) have probably walked the entire Skyway at this point, From a regular use standpoint I would say we predominately use it to walk to work when the weather discourages an outdoor walk (for her it is to Wells Fargo, for me it is to what seems to becoming dubbed the "SoftWarehouse District", to the stores along Nicllolet, Restaurants, and to the Occasional Show. We also walk outside, bike, and make use of the LRT to MOA and the Airport so it would be fair that from my standpoint I see the whole Skyway as a vital piece in a terrific ecosystem that has been put together.

Funny thing is; at this time we are without a car right now (I'll be taking delivery on a Fiesta ST in late October but we sold both our cars in July and August because neither was well suited to what we use a vehicle for these days). As someone who has lived the classic American Car Ownership lifestyle since I was 15, it is hard to convey how much of a culture change that has been for us. But since moving from what would a typical suburban/urban commute scenario in Indiana (where we had a sizable property about 15 minutes from work/downtown) to downtown Minneapolis we actually saw our annual vehicle mileage drop from about 25k a year (between two cars) to less than 3k in the last 9 months. The Skyway played a big part in that shift and while we probably can't do without a vehicle altogether I've been more than a little surprised that being without one for that last few weeks hasn't been that big of a deal.

As for improvements, sure I've a few thoughts but some are admittedly "blue sky" while others might be more practical:

* Expansion should be encouraged where it can be, especially with each establishment of a downtown residence; perhaps via a tax-break during building construction or some type of public/private management fund (perhaps similar to what is being discussed for the Park in Downtown East). Blue-Sky would be using that fund perhaps to increase mapping/direction quality for the newbies/tourists as well as moving towards a 24/365 security presence for the areas that will most surely see 24/365 traffic as the residential population expands.

* Connection "hubs" might be a nice idea. By that I mean yes, bringing a Skyway link to the river (the Guthrie perhaps?) that "lands" at a hub where the Skyway, Bikeways, and Walking Paths come together. That would be just an example BTW; another would be more direct Skyway Connectivity to the LRT stops along 5th. Right now they criss-cross each other but there is really no spot(s) where once can step out of an LRT and walk immediately into the Skyway system.

* Many more openings from the Skyway to the street. The Skyway at it's best is as an inclement weather and dispersed-or-loosely-structured-mall system. Minneapolis should celebrate the seasonal nature of the city more by making it easier for the people to transition from the Skyway to the street. Some of what I've seen proposed for Nicollet Mall Skybridges I think is on the right path. "Blue Sky" cool would be Skybridges that mimic what we are doing with the new stadium by having glass panels that "open" when the weather is nice, exposing the bridges to the sounds and the ambience of the streets below.

I do agree about some of your amenity suggestions such as better access to pet-friendly areas. Evelia and have had English Bulldogs for the 25 years prior to our moving downtown and a major reason we don't have any right now is that the downtown infrastructure really doesn't lend itself well to that world. But in some ways I see that as connected-but-indirectly-so to the Skyway System. The influx of people into Downtown and Downtown East is absolutely going to create pressure for these kind of things. (Pet Areas, More Casual/Less Expensive Eateries that are open evenings and weekends, more casual entertainment, such as a small cinema, 24hr convenience stores on the Skyway System, etc... etc....) But the way I see it, private enterprise will step in in those areas, provided the infrastructure is friendly enough to the creation of those things.

Anyway, that is just my opinion, I could be wrong... ;)
Last edited by Michael on September 7th, 2014, 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Michael
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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Michael » September 7th, 2014, 10:28 am

If Minneapolis really wants to create a remarkable urban experience for downtown residents, workers and visitors, then the skyways need to be accessible 24/7/365. No restrictions whatsoever. Our culture allows people to live any way they see fit. There are people who live on the skyways who work 1st, 2nd and 3rd shifts and also NO shifts. There are not just 9-5 office workers downtown. For years I worked in a very high-stress creative industry where I sometimes had to come back to the office at 1 AM to shepard a project due at 8 AM for international clients, because their deadlines were six time zones away. I couldn't use the skyway for that. Instead, I had to drive 8 blocks in bad weather, park for several hours and drive back home, even though I could have walked the route in 10 minutes had the skyways been open those odd hours.

If the skyways are - at the very least - quasi-public spaces, then they need to be available at all hours without restriction. Just like the streets are.
Agreed FWIW. I'm an exec in a Start-Up at this time and the job is completely intertwined into my life. One of the reasons I'm enjoying living downtown right now is it's eliminating as much "wasted time" as possible and means a much more productive life; more free-time that would otherwise be devoted to commuting all to H@## and gone. While I understand the reasons why the sections of the Skyway get closed in a seemingly arbitrary manner (as it is really something that is dictated by the building owners on a fairly ad-hoc basis determined by costs, security concerns, and (in some cases) laziness) it will need to change as time goes on.

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Anondson » September 7th, 2014, 10:39 am

The Downtown Council has talked about a "conservancy district" to pay for the operations of The Yard and making more public space downtown.

This conservancy district should also be involved with creating more and better connections between the skyway and the street, plus making the skyway open all day where it can.

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby IllogicalJake » September 7th, 2014, 12:13 pm

I just want to echo many of the pro-skyway points here, especially as a Soo Line resident, and also mention that skyways were a significant factor in deciding to move to Minneapolis. Skyway cart trips to Target rock.

And like most, until I solidified the route to the store in my brain, I got lost nearly a dozen times trying to find it. :)
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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby Lancestar2 » September 7th, 2014, 12:37 pm

Thanks for your detailed opinions Michael. I don't think I ever really considered the skyway be 24 hours. I noticed some bums hang out there at night near the convention center segments, and dealing with the nightlife party crowd at bar close might be a bit nerve wrecking for buildings owners but it sure would be great knowing the skyway was always accessible when needed. Imaging 24 hour access to the skyway and 24 hour access to the unnamed grocery store sure would be an amazing benefit to all the residents downtown.

I understand what you mean regarding cars. I grew up just outside of a suburb and that concept of a car being a requirement to life is easily engraved into your mind. I never envisioned being able to live without a car, never even crossed my mind until recently. Having skyways really promotes walking instead of driving. Even Avian stated he decided to drive instead of walk outside during his middle of the night work trip. Perhaps we will at least see the weekend skyway hours pushed back to 10PM closing in the next few years. Yes, better LRT station to Skyway access would be a huge benefit. 24hr convenience stores on the Skyway System, I sure hope I live to see the day! Again thanks for your viewpoint, I think in some ways Downtown St. Paul and the MOA are an "extension" of the skyway network considering they are a quick warm LRT ride away.


A few open ended questions for you and anyone else who wishes to give there thoughts..

What type of connectivity network will/should be developed next to the MOA? There is so many office buildings right next to the mall, do many of these workers visit the mall's food court for a quick lunch or shopping? If so how do they do it currently get there? (car, walk, LRT) What type of design of a network would better enhance the needs of the area (MOA wants to get more customers and office workers want a good lunch) Say in 10-25 years when that area is a bit more developed and you have parking ramps instead of parking lots would there be a need for a skyway network that connect office buildings to LRT stations which from there they can travel to the MOA? Or would a direct skyway network be a better design? Or is the cost simply to great an would outweigh any potential benefits of increased sales?


EDIT: IlliogicalJake do you know what the policy of Target is with using their shopping carts in the skyway? I don't see that many carts in the skyway but I seen a few. Are customers actually allowed to take them and do the usually bring them back or do staff go collect them?

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Re: Minneapolis Skyway System

Postby xandrex » September 7th, 2014, 6:34 pm

EDIT: IlliogicalJake do you know what the policy of Target is with using their shopping carts in the skyway? I don't see that many carts in the skyway but I seen a few. Are customers actually allowed to take them and do the usually bring them back or do staff go collect them?
As someone who actually worked at that Target many years ago, I can tell you that carts are not allowed outside of Target. They can go around the store and then down to the parking ramp, where they have a cart attendant who brings them back in. If you try to leave the store (either at street or skyway level), the wheels will lock.

I'm assuming IllogicalJake uses his own wheeled cart


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