AC Marriott Hotel - 401 Hennepin Ave (Andrews Hotel site)

[Nathan]

With ALL those quotes was it once mentioned we needed a 1000 footer here? Negative. Again with all those quotes you apparently think we are all wrong and yet you and maybe a few others are correct. Okay then.

Perhaps the hotel may be a "budget" design but it's positive effects on the community have not even been mentioned, unless I skipped over them. It does appear at times like a rich snooty boys club. I would love for somebody to explain why they view the building as being a negative addition to the community by being more specifics beyond using a thesauruses to come up with new synonyms for ugly. Feel free to discuss your minimal requirements for a desirable building at this location. What textures, window ratio, height, ect ect. would convert this design into a winner?

Let me also emphasize that good design and architecture does not directly correlate with being ridiculously high end and expensive.

[Silophant]

Perhaps the hotel may be a "budget" design but it's positive effects on the community have not even been mentioned, unless I skipped over them.

You did.

Those rooms along Hennepin will be great to watch the Pride Parade from! I've spent a few years watching from The Chambers and they are absolutely the best seats on the route. I don't love it, I don't hate it... it'll do.

I think it'll fill a good place in our hotel market and the design isn't terrible. It definitely compliments the more modern buildings around it rather than the lumber exchange.

Agreed. It is nice to see another surface lot bite the dust, and it shows confidence in our economy that another hotel is being proposed

Also, after looking at the quotes again in context, I'll amend my post from this morning and say that only one of your thirteen quotes suggested that the project shouldn't be built.

In any case, I think everyone, including me, needs to remember that this is the initial proposal. I'll almost certainly change at least a little before going to construction. I'm sure there's been something built in the Twin Cities in the past few years that ended up looking exactly like the first public rendering, but I have no idea what it is.

[mullen]

this will be built pretty much as it looks here. this isn't like the guthrie theater or some high concept cultural project. with some tweaks what we see here will be built.

[Didier]

Architecture aside, this hotel is a pretty big vote of confidence for the future of a pretty unappealing part of downtown.

[John]

Architecture aside, this hotel is a pretty big vote of confidence for the future of a pretty unappealing part of downtown.

Agree. No one is opposed to the project and its great to have them on Hennepin. Just needs some upgrade and little less blandness on the exterior, especially on the upper levels. I think Mortenson and the architects will get feedback from the city to improve the design and it will happen.

[Archiapolis]

With ALL those quotes was it once mentioned we needed a 1000 footer here? Negative. Again with all those quotes you apparently think we are all wrong and yet you and maybe a few others are correct. Okay then.

Perhaps the hotel may be a "budget" design but it's positive effects on the community have not even been mentioned, unless I skipped over them. It does appear at times like a rich snooty boys club. I would love for somebody to explain why they view the building as being a negative addition to the community by being more specifics beyond using a thesauruses to come up with new synonyms for ugly. Feel free to discuss your minimal requirements for a desirable building at this location. What textures, window ratio, height, ect ect. would convert this design into a winner?

Let me also emphasize that good design and architecture does not directly correlate with being ridiculously high end and expensive.

Examples? Links?

I'd love to see examples of what you think is "good design/architecture" that isn't expensive.

[twincitizen]

Architecture aside, this hotel is a pretty big vote of confidence for the future of a pretty unappealing part of downtown.

Agree. No one is opposed to the project and its great to have them on Hennepin. Just needs some upgrade and little less blandness on the exterior, especially on the upper levels. I think Mortenson and the architects will get feedback from the city to improve the design and it will happen.

I saw some comments of that nature on Jacob Frey's Facebook page, so commenting there is probably your best bet right now. That and emailing his office.

I agree this is a pretty ugly corner right now, and they are taking a leap, sort of. If all goes according to plan, within a decade there will be a Conrad Hotel 2 blocks away, Eclipse development 1 block away, along with the Opus/Ritz block and Nicollet Hotel block just down the street. While this will remain kitty-korner to the public housing, there is talk of turning the Hennepin frontage of their parking lot into a pocket park, which will certainly help. So on one hand they are taking a leap based on present conditions, but on the other hand it is really tempting to imagine what they might propose instead if they just waited 3-5 years.

EDIT: All that said, I guess this will remain the only development or change specifically AT the intersection of Hennepin & 4th. The public housing adding a public pocket park, and Gay 90s doing any minor upgrades whatsoever could still make a supportive impact, but less significant. The ugliest, most detrimental part of this intersection might actually be the public ROW itself. That intersection and the sidewalks in this area are just awful. 4th St needs to drop a lane.

[Nathan]

Examples? Links?

I'd love to see examples of what you think is "good design/architecture" that isn't expensive.

I'll use some local examples of similar building concepts with similar exterior finishes that probably cost nearly the same to apply yet one is far more effective than the other because of creative use, or just a uniform application of the design concept.

Example 1:

Izzy's vs The Cluster

Both are small scale buildings with unique geometric protrusions that give them a creative modern design. However I personally think that the simplicity and graphic nature of Izzy's purely stucco exterior is more effective and dynamic. The color choices on The cluster don't reflect the building's creative character, the are bland and create a strange juxtaposition with the architecture of the building. And I'd have to imagine the Metal paneling on the cluster is more expensive than the synthetic stucco per square.

The side of Brunsfield Place (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9902348 ... 1wOczw!2e0)
vs the Back of 222 Hen (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9837633 ... dvwSaw!2e0)

Both use the same kind of metal panel in two tones on flat one dimensional surfaces. Brunsfield uses them to create a dynamic look, that is well thought out and relates to the rest of the building's architecture. 222 arbitrarily places a second color in block patterns that don't create any shape or form or compliment anything about the other sides of the building. Materials costing the same but having dramatically differing effects because of consistency (or lack of( with the concept.

Junction Flats vs Lime

Both have fairly retro color schemes and long rectangular metal panels on masonry bases with stucco accents. Junction Flats looks mostly seamless. The color combinations and placement of materials flow. Lime on the other hand has rather arbitrarily placed primer grey and Black stucco sections that don't necessarily relate all that well to the warm color pallet of the metal paneling. The black is used inside of some of the balcony areas and stops at strange outside corners turning into the primer grey desegmenting and blurring the fairly nice architectural details. I'd imagine that the angled exterior walls of Lime cost more, the finishing materials for both were similar but the Junction Flats comes off more whole and visually consistent.

The Walkway Vs Velo

Both buildings use ample MN Dolomite, and those fake wood panels as well as multiple colors in their finishing scheme. The walkway as much as I kind of like it (and the retail and what it does for street life in Uptown) is very jumbled and confused, Velo however uses the materials in a uniform fashion and commits to a scheme. It's architectural bump outs make sense and aren't super flat "trying" to make architectural shapes. I'd imagine most of the buildings had a similar exterior cost per square (amenities aside)

This project vs the Hampton Inn.

They look very similar. If the tan on the AC by Marriot isn't stone and is intact stucco... It's basically the same for a brand that is supposed to be design forward. And the rooms at Hampton are probably going to be more reasonable. I'll reserve judgement until final designs and materials are in, and Like I said I don't hate this, it's just really inconsistent with the architecture of The Library and The Lumber exchange two buildings that express themselves and their concept extremely well with little unneeded gimics.

[mullen]

in looking at the other new ac marriott's coming online in other u.s. cities, with a couple of exceptions, the mpls design is similar. they are using the same arch firm for a few of these. san jose's and kansas city are similar, different coloring.
miami's appears more intersesting design wise, but it's miami.

[Nathan]

I did a google image search just AC Marriot. Granted a lot of this is europe... but yikes this is SO night and day.

http://exp.cdn-hotels.com/hotels/200000 ... 5_89_b.jpg

http://hotels.cdn-venere.com/hotels/200 ... 9_45_b.jpg

http://d1pa4et5htdsls.cloudfront.net/im ... iginal.jpg

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/ ... achada.jpg

[seanrichardryan]

Yikes indeed. I like our bland box compared to those. though #3 is ooook.

[John]

There is an AC Hotel going up in Tucson quite daring in design.

[Archiapolis]

Examples? Links?

I'd love to see examples of what you think is "good design/architecture" that isn't expensive.

I'll use some local examples of similar building concepts with similar exterior finishes that probably cost nearly the same to apply yet one is far more effective than the other because of creative use, or just a uniform application of the design concept.

Example 1:

Izzy's vs The Cluster

Both are small scale buildings with unique geometric protrusions that give them a creative modern design. However I personally think that the simplicity and graphic nature of Izzy's purely stucco exterior is more effective and dynamic. The color choices on The cluster don't reflect the building's creative character, the are bland and create a strange juxtaposition with the architecture of the building. And I'd have to imagine the Metal paneling on the cluster is more expensive than the synthetic stucco per square.

The side of Brunsfield Place (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9902348 ... 1wOczw!2e0)
vs the Back of 222 Hen (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9837633 ... dvwSaw!2e0)

Both use the same kind of metal panel in two tones on flat one dimensional surfaces. Brunsfield uses them to create a dynamic look, that is well thought out and relates to the rest of the building's architecture. 222 arbitrarily places a second color in block patterns that don't create any shape or form or compliment anything about the other sides of the building. Materials costing the same but having dramatically differing effects because of consistency (or lack of( with the concept.

Junction Flats vs Lime

Both have fairly retro color schemes and long rectangular metal panels on masonry bases with stucco accents. Junction Flats looks mostly seamless. The color combinations and placement of materials flow. Lime on the other hand has rather arbitrarily placed primer grey and Black stucco sections that don't necessarily relate all that well to the warm color pallet of the metal paneling. The black is used inside of some of the balcony areas and stops at strange outside corners turning into the primer grey desegmenting and blurring the fairly nice architectural details. I'd imagine that the angled exterior walls of Lime cost more, the finishing materials for both were similar but the Junction Flats comes off more whole and visually consistent.

The Walkway Vs Velo

Both buildings use ample MN Dolomite, and those fake wood panels as well as multiple colors in their finishing scheme. The walkway as much as I kind of like it (and the retail and what it does for street life in Uptown) is very jumbled and confused, Velo however uses the materials in a uniform fashion and commits to a scheme. It's architectural bump outs make sense and aren't super flat "trying" to make architectural shapes. I'd imagine most of the buildings had a similar exterior cost per square (amenities aside)

This project vs the Hampton Inn.

They look very similar. If the tan on the AC by Marriot isn't stone and is intact stucco... It's basically the same for a brand that is supposed to be design forward. And the rooms at Hampton are probably going to be more reasonable. I'll reserve judgement until final designs and materials are in, and Like I said I don't hate this, it's just really inconsistent with the architecture of The Library and The Lumber exchange two buildings that express themselves and their concept extremely well with little unneeded gimics.

Thank you for taking the time to look at architecture with a critical eye and care enough about it to respond.

I have to say, project type (and the economics associated with them) and the developers are VERY important factors in a discussion like this, more so than massing, scale, etc.

Quick note on building materials that will (GENERALLY) apply across most of your examples. These things obviously fluctuate with availability, size of units, labor, etc:

Cheap—>Expensive

Cement Fiberboard (lap), CF (panels with reveals), corrugated (painted) metal panel, “cultured stone*” stucco**, “ribbed” metal panel (rhomboid profile), brick, limestone, metal panel rain screen***, Ipe rain screen

*concrete made to look like stone

**most of these applications are “real” three coat systems that may/probably have plasticizers, etc in the mixes (vs EIFS which is not a part of the conversation)

***depending on wall assembly and finish material (copper > anodized>painted)


Izzy's vs The Cluster

Izzy’s is a good building in my estimation. However, an owner-occupied, single-use building adjacent to a very nice park are parameters that The Cluster does not share. To put it more simply, the economics of an owner-occupied… are much different than rental housing, especially directed at students. I like the way that you are trying to compare similarly scaled buildings but there other far more important factors that make these different to compare.


Brunsfield vs 222 Hennepin

“Both use the same kind of metal panel in two tones on flat one dimensional surfaces.”
Wrong. This is an important distinction. Brunsfield uses an expensive proprietary metal panel rain screen called Dri-Design. See the material breakdown above. This material is in the $30/sf range (installed), brick for example is in the $25 range (installed). The Brunsfield is a good building and deserves credit not only for the architects but also the developer (which is a VASTLY underplayed factor in these projects). I have made lots of comments in the Brunsfield thread if you are interested.

https://forum.streets.mn/viewtopic.php?f=13& ... eld#p28827

Regarding 222 Hennepin, look at my material breakdown above - “cultured stone”, some brick, 30%+ “flat lok” metal panel and 30%+ cement fiberboard panel, versus ALL metal panel rain screen at Brunsfield - no comparison. I think 222 Hennepin is not great for the reasons that you mention, and that Humphreys is a bad firm, doing bad work in this city.

Junction Flats vs Lime

This is probably your most interesting comparison. Lime also uses the proprietary metal panel rain screen system (same as Brunsfield) that is quite expensive and Junction Flats uses more “conventional” materials so it is interesting to hear that you don’t think the more expensive cladding has a superior effect when considered on the whole with the other materials. The non-metal panels at Lime are cement fiberboard panels, not stucco. I have to be a little careful here…Lime isn’t for everyone but I applaud the boldness of it. I think the charcoal and “warm grey” were attempts to create visual “rest” relative to the “pixelated” field but apparently you don’t think the neutrals are effective - valid criticism. It would have been a different building had the Midtown Greenway not fought the height/setback, as the original design had a cantilevered overhang along 29th at the angled walls instead of a “step back” as seen currently. There was also a distinctive neighborhood marker sign that ran up the “tower”/front, that meant to evoke the Uptown Theater marquee - it also didn’t make it into the project as well as a “lantern” at the top of the main facade.

The Walkway Vs Velo

Another good comparison although the Walkway site is much more prominent and a more expensive building. The Walkway has a great deal more of the composite wood panels, the reflective metal panel at the base is very expensive, the retail/amenity space at Walkway is WAY more expensive than Velo (two level restaurants, cantilevered hot tubs, etc). Big difference in developers on these two projects and the character of each comes through.


This project vs the Hampton Inn.

I’m not well informed on the brand scales/“flags” for hotels. Hampton Inn doesn’t strike me as luxury, it strikes me as affordable. If you say AC by Marriot is also in this class then they are worth comparing. This brings home an important point - same architect on this project and Hampton Inn, different developers.

Thanks for your candor and your interest in architecture; I love that people are engaged.

[Nathan]

I have more than just interest in Architecture, it was basically my former profession, I have half of an arch degree and I have a design management degree. My former job before returning to school was doing exterior design for homes so I'm very familiar with a lot of exterior cladding material and how it can be used effectively. In the last 5 years of working in exterior design, at least 60% of the homes on the Luxury Home tour were my color and material schemes, many residential builders and architects trust my keen eye on proportion and material usage. I've been on Extreme Home Make Over, Curb Appeal a few times times, and multiple DIY Network shows discussing these very things.

I bring this up because you seem to be missing my point. In regard to Brunsfield vs 222 It has nothing to do with the quality of the material. Its about the placement and having a cohesive conversation with the building and the rest of the materials. Even if Brunsfield used the cheaper metal paneling it would still achieve a better more unified look than 222's arbitrary placement. It's not about the actual $$ comparison between the two buildings. A $1.00 a brick red brick building and a $2.00 a brick red brick building look fundamentally the same.

Also with Lime where they missed the ball wasn't the actual colors of grey and black, it's where the put the colors that create awkward shapes in the architecture. I'm saying that Lime has more interesting architecture than Junction Flats, but because of just bad placement of materials it comes off muddied.

With the cluster I'm saying the architecture is in a similar vein to Izzy's and would not have cost them any more to create a color scheme to be a well designed building. Something that would not have cost the rental property owner/developer any more money, just thought, and a willingness to go there.

The argument between Walkway and Velo you're just proving my point Walkway is way more extensive and expensive and uses a lot of the same materials but Velo comes away looking better with better execution of them.

What I'm trying to get across is that not every building needs to have crazy expensive facades or Gehry exteriors to be well designed buildings. It's NOT expensive to make a nice looking building.

[John]

^^^Brunsfield is one of the best apartment projects to go up exactly for the reason you stated above. I also think it's not so out of proportion with the site, trying to cram in every square foot possible, and ignoring the scale of the buildings around it. It fits in comfortably with the neighborhood.

[lordmoke]

From CPED, still the same crap heap proposal. A bunch of upset letters attached:
http://minneapolismn.gov/www/groups/pub ... 135837.pdf

[FISHMANPET]

Newsflash (since I see a bunch of UrbanMSPers wrote in): We do not operate in a planned economy where the city government dictates exactly what will be built.

[Wedgeguy]

Good to see that there is vocal opposition on this plan. Hope that they get sent back to the drawing board for an appropriate product for this site. While we can't dictate, we can express opposition to a poor product that should not even have been brought to the table.

[Didier]

I like that one of the posted emails contained this stern warning.

PROPRIETARY: This e-mail contains proprietary information some or all of which may be legally privileged. It is intended for the recipient only. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify the authority by replying to this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print, or rely on this email.

[xandrex]

We certainly can't dictate the height. Taller would be nice, of course.

I do hope they do something about the design. It's not horrible, per se, just boring. Otherwise, I kind of like how they have the building laid out (hotel pull-up hidden in back). Would be nice if there was some sort of entrance on Hennepin though (is there? may have missed that).