RBC Gateway & Four Seasons - 37 stories - 519'

[nordeast homer]

With regards to the Duval think you are ignoring or minimalizing the cut outs. Dubai may have 8 of these, but we have nothing remotely like this. Beyond that, I belive it has a better mix than the other proposals we have seen. The Doran proposal is disappointing (a 6 story hotel, please...); the layout of the block is better, but imo the buildings are ugly. The UP proposal is okay, but the tower doesn't seem to fit with the base. I might like the UP proposal if the tower was split into two, one on the north end and the other on the south end of the block.

[twincitizen]

I haven't really dug into this since the proposals came out, but here's a thought experiment:

Let's make the United Properties proposal a few stories taller, say 40-45 (currently proposed at 36). Now bring Duval down a bit, assuming some value engineering, so 60-65 stories.

Is the Duval proposal still as good? Or is it only preferred because it is tall?

[Silophant]

IMO, yes. Everyone's ripping on the Duval proposal for just being a flat rectangle, but the UP proposal is just two flat rectangles mushed together, and I don't really see how that's better.

As far as the ground level goes, I think the glass atrium is cooler than the strange netting in UPs proposal.

[FISHMANPET]

I don't think being tall is a virtue in and of itself, but I think the height of it makes it stand out. I don't think that same design would work at a lower height. And as far as I can tell Minneapolis doesn't have a a simple thin glass tower. Simple and elegant can be good, it doesn't have to be loaded down with design elements to be good design. It certainly would be iconic, and I think the negative space and roof space ~1/3 of the way up the building keeps it from being "boring."

The UP proposal is hard to judge, since there's no indication of what the exterior would actually look like, rather just the shape.

The Doran proposal is boring as well, another six stick building is not iconic, no matter how you dress it up, and the tower looks rather stubby to me, it needs to be taller or be a different shape.

Disclaimer: I have no training or education in architecture, these are all amateur opinions.

[David Greene]

Yes, I think it still works at a shorter height but certainly at some point it becomes less interesting. Perhaps once you get significantly shorter than the IDS.

I like the design because of its simplicity, not in spite of it. I love the cutouts and green roofs. My favorite part is the Crystal Court-like base. How that's executed is going to be central to whether this is a great building or not. If it's like the Crystal Court, fantastic! If it's just a huge lobby, meh.

The Doran buildings are just awful in comparison. It's really schizophrenic. The only redeeming quality of that project is the streetscape, which isn't insignificant.

The problem I have with the UP proposal is that the towers look like another Riverside Plaza. The buildings look like something out of the '70's and we have stuff like that literally across the street. I do like the podium but as others have pointed out, the curvy podium juxtaposed with blocky towers sorta looks strange.

[Wedgeguy]

I look at the Doran and see a fugly mid 60's attempt at an art deco tower in Miami. The rest of the block is the same old BVK 6 story stick that is far from Iconic.

[mattaudio]

I agree that the Doran could look better, but I think the concept of a circular tower would be unique while also working well with the strange angles on this block due to the grid shift (and the fact that this was originally the split point between the Nicollet and Hennepin viewsheds). The main failing for the Doran project, IMO, was the uninspired and disconnected podium lowrise.

Regarding Duval, I think it's doable but I'd rather see slight changes in angles and orientation to make a statement regarding the offset of Hennepin and Washington compared to the downtown grid. The north/northwest face of any tower here is going to be VERY prominent when seen down the Washington Ave viewshed from the North Loop. The current view is dominated by Marquette Plaza.

[martykoessel]

Tallest equals neither best nor most beautiful. I'm not opposed to the Duval proposal, but I'm not ready to jump on the bandwagon just because it would reach 80 stories. From where I stand (quite literally), I believe that how a building relates to the street and its surroundings is much more important than its height. There's no shortage of examples. Among them:

The City Center tower is tall and oppressive. On the Mall, City Center is short and oppressive.

There was all sorts of clamor about the Target HQ being too tall for its site, but it was designed well and feels just fine at 11th and the Mall, even if the building itself isn't an architectural highlight. Just across the street is the 2-story Lafayette building with Brit's and Vincent, and how could any skyscraper make that little stretch of sidewalk more delightful?

Skyline bragging rights are way down the list of points for evaluating which proposal for the Nicollet Hotel Block is best for the city.

[Nathan]

The doran proposal definitely needs to be fleshed out better but I like it, it feels very "the Hague" or "Rotterdam" to me. It's not that the Duval proposal wouldn't be fine, it's just very blah compared to what the rest of the world is choosing at the same height in 2015. If we had others going up to compliment it that would be cool, but no one knows when that will be. If the ground floor is as awesome as it could be, great, let's just hope we get another signature building somewhere soon because it's a snoozer.

[FISHMANPET]

Context matters in context of what's next door, not on what's a continent over. I don't really care if Dubai has 8 or 80 or 8 million of these, because we're not really competing with Dubai, and even if we were, who cares? Does the fact that Dubai has 8 of them change the context in which this building sits? I don't think it does. And Is anyplace else in the world building "at this height" building a building surpasses the current highest, which has held that title for 40 years, by 200 feet? A city building it's 10th super-tallish building is one thing, but that's not really an appropriate context to be comparing us in.

I just don't really get the complaint that a slender glass tower is "boring." It doesn't need to have chotskies to be good design.

I think this would be a snoozer at a shorter height, and I think even at this height it would be a bit of a snoozer if the tower occupied much more of the block, but a very tall slender building on a part of downtown that probably isn't going to see a lot of other development at anything near that height would certainly qualify as signature to me.

[LakeCharles]

Agreed entirely FMP.

[FISHMANPET]

And apparently sl ender is changed to veiny now. This should be an interesting thread.

[Nathan]

You're right context does matter, and no we don't have to compare ourselves to other cities, but it will be done inevitably. And it will say: "look Minneapolis is trying to keep up with the Jones' LAWLZ!!!" That's fine we have a lot of catching up to do, and it would at least give us a piece in the story line which is skyscraper architecture, it's just definitely behind the 8 ball. If Chevy released a 2010 mercedes as a new car in their line up in 2015, it would be a nice chevy, but it would be an overplayed tired old mercedes.

Also, the building it's surpassing was extensively thought out by a master architect, we're essentially replacing our former "tallest" and 2 other fairly iconic buildings with a copy paste tall glass box. Is it fine? yes, it's fine. Do I think we deserve better, yup.

I'm not anti Duval proposal here, The tower looks fine, the amenities seem fine, just underwhelmed, and surprised at how many people are gangbusters for it just because they're thirsty.

[uptowncarag]

What is the holdup with the 4th proposal? I am also curious about the communications proposal in the Duval project. WCCO and KSTP are the only stations that have radio. I could see Fox moving downtown. This would give any station more exposure. I can't see KARE moving at all given how cheap they are. Their on air production is right out of KAAL Austin/Albert Lea.

[lordmoke]

I'm not anti Duval proposal here, The tower looks fine, the amenities seem fine, just underwhelmed, and surprised at how many people are gangbusters for it just because they're thirsty.

Excessive thirst makes people behave irrationally.

Let's also not forget that these proposals could all change significantly by the time ground is broken on anything. As far as a general proposal goes, this one is the only one that shows ambition. The specifics can be adjusted.

[FISHMANPET]

I guess I just can't agree that a simple building can't be good design. It doesn't have to be overwrought with shapes and corners and elements.

The Wells Fargo building is an Art Deco tower, and it's not the only one in the world, yet it's still iconic. Iconic doesn't have to mean absolutely different from everything else.

[Nathan]

I agree I think it would be appropriate for people to keep their heads about them and encourage their council members to put some pressure on Duval to add that little something to make it a home run.

[a_tribe_called_chris]

I would love to hear what others would like Duval to do. It sounds like small minded thinking is coming out with many of the negative comments. So what if it surpasses the IDS? Progress. No one stays on top forever. A tower of this height would be great for Minneapolis. I actually like the simpler design and it would add another unique element that is different than the other tall big 3. I personally like the building for its simplistic and sleek nature along with its height going above 900.

Have you ever been to Atlanta? They have a few art deco styled towers and its rather boring.

[Wedgeguy]

I would love to hear what others would like Duval to do. It sounds like small minded thinking is coming out with many of the negative comments. So what if it surpasses the IDS? Progress. No one stays on top forever. A tower of this height would be great for Minneapolis. I actually like the simpler design and it would add another unique element that is different than the other tall big 3. I personally like the building for its simplistic and sleek nature along with its height going above 900.

Have you ever been to Atlanta? They have a few art deco styled towers and its rather boring.

I think when you are talking Atlanta most of the towers there are Post Modern which was big in the 80's and 90's. Also some of their best towers are out in what I think of more as a suburb than the core. Midtown or Buckhill I think.

I'm all for the sleek simple tower with the lit crown on top. It would be nice to see the tower follow Hennepin some instead of just a square. I like the negative space, I'm curious as to if there will be outdoor balconies that will add some texture to the residential portion of the building. I very much like the basic premise of this building. I'm sure that there will be some tweaking done before they get finally approval on this. There has to be some more detail that will be shown or worked on before the city makes their final decision. I'm one that feel that any taller tower should be on the Mall, but that is just MO. As the tallest tower we can point people to the river by saying you just go a few block past the tallest tower. It will be the North mall beginning and/or terminus. Look forward to how they work the street level and the atrium into the transit program.

[John]

I think it's important to remember the Duval rendering is conceptual at this point. Currently the tower its located on the northeast end on the block where I thought the streetcar will have to carve through, so the tower will likely have to change it's orientation ( which may change its shape to some degree). This is a more simple, minimalist design which tends to depend more on the quality of the exterior façade for its aesthetic appeal rather than it's form. I'm confident with the architects he's chosen will create a high quality glassy building which will feel sleek, light, and transparent. Also, the rendering suggests a plan to create subtle light gradation at the crown to culminate with a brilliant white light as it meets the sky. That should look quite lovely.