RBC Gateway (Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 519'

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
m b p
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 198
Joined: September 3rd, 2012, 5:46 pm

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby m b p » December 18th, 2014, 3:40 pm

LakeCharles wrote:Counting the vertical bars on the windows on the Library, it appears as though the skyway connects at the very eastern side of the Library, which would put that park into the Nicollet right of way. So there isn't actually a setback, Nicollet just isn't a street anymore. But who knows if that is what they intended.

That's exactly how I see it.

The old Nicollet Mall is highlighted with red lines.
Image
Last edited by m b p on December 18th, 2014, 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Nathan
IDS Center
Posts: 4009
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 10:42 am

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Nathan » December 18th, 2014, 3:43 pm

Do you really think that Cancer Survivors park could be eaten up that much? Google maps shows you exactly where they hallway that leads to the skyway entrance is if you click on level 2.

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6260
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby twincitizen » December 18th, 2014, 3:49 pm

What dimension are you using for the base of the tower? Setback from Hennepin?

The Washington Ave side of the parcel measures 184 feet (sidewalk to sidewalk, exclusive thereof): http://gis.hennepin.us/property/map/def ... 2924410107

If you push the building up to Hennepin (assuming a reasonable setback of 10'-15') it seems like there should be lots of room left within the property lines. If Duval's proposal assumes some kind of acquisition of Cancer Survivors Park land (all private property on Marquette Plaza's parcel), then that's a huge mark against it, because that land would have to be paid for, and it likely wouldn't come cheap.

m b p
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 198
Joined: September 3rd, 2012, 5:46 pm

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby m b p » December 18th, 2014, 3:54 pm

Nathan wrote:If it came straight out of the allotted skyway on the library it would more than double the current public space on the Nicollet side of the lot.

ImageScreen Shot 2014-12-18 at 1.33.10 PM by fotoapparatic, on Flickr

This is definitely not to criticize MBP, but to point out that there is a greater amount of public realm there, in credit to the project. (I'd assume that maybe someday this public space could be taken up by tracks for the street car?
Image

User avatar
Nathan
IDS Center
Posts: 4009
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 10:42 am

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Nathan » December 18th, 2014, 4:00 pm

So your red lines are what? The current sidewalk? I really don't see them being able to change Nicollet that much.

Just doesn't work out in my head... Like I said your drawing is awesome I'm just trying to figure how they get all that plaza if they aren't using less of their site.

m b p
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 198
Joined: September 3rd, 2012, 5:46 pm

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby m b p » December 18th, 2014, 4:08 pm

twincitizen wrote:What dimension are you using for the base of the tower? Setback from Hennepin?

The Washington Ave side of the parcel measures 184 feet (sidewalk to sidewalk, exclusive thereof): http://gis.hennepin.us/property/map/def ... 2924410107

If you push the building up to Hennepin (assuming a reasonable setback of 10'-15' or something, it seems like there should be lots of room leftover within the property. If Duval's proposal assumes some kind of acquisition of Cancer Survivors Park land (all private property on Marquette Plaza's parcel), then that's a huge mark against it, because that land would have to be paid for, and it likely wouldn't come cheap.
The Base of tower is approx 120'+ x 100'+
The tower is set back some 50 ft or so from Hennepin (though the podium goes all the way to Hennepin) .
Image
My guess work for measuring the lot has 180 feet along Washington.

I'm pretty sure they added park space in front of the building, just for the render.

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6260
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby twincitizen » December 18th, 2014, 4:13 pm

I swear it was even mentioned somewhere in a description of the project that the building was intentionally set back from Nicollet... I'll see if I can dig that up.

You're probably right though...that rendering of the Nicollet frontage is probably skewed to exaggerate the scale of the "park" space.

There's currently 80' of right of way between this property and where Marquette Plaza property begins. There's a weird sidewalk-boulevard-sidewalk thing going on, which takes up way more room than is necessary. Presumably you could shift the entire thing to the south, fitting in 10' sidewalks (x2), 6' boulevards/transition zone (x2), and 24' of bus/streetcar ROW, all in 56'-60' of ROW. That leaves perhaps 20-24' of space that could be added to the "park", plus the curve in Nicollet adds even more midblock, so perhaps that is how they arrived at their rendering.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7932
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby mattaudio » December 18th, 2014, 4:21 pm

So, this and the library would be disconnected from the rest of the skyway network until a point at which either the Ritz Block was developed, or a skyway was put through the Xcel 414 mezzanine (or possibly a utiliskyway above the alley behind 414 and the ramp, blocking 414's rear 2nd level windows - both options seem equally as unlikely).

m b p
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 198
Joined: September 3rd, 2012, 5:46 pm

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby m b p » December 18th, 2014, 4:29 pm

The green space they show is Nicollet Mall re-done... turned into a maze of walkways.

Image

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6260
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby twincitizen » December 18th, 2014, 4:49 pm

mattaudio wrote:So, this and the library would be disconnected from the rest of the skyway network until a point at which either the Ritz Block was developed, or a skyway was put through the Xcel 414 mezzanine (or possibly a utiliskyway above the alley behind 414 and the ramp, blocking 414's rear 2nd level windows - both options seem equally as unlikely).
I wonder if Shamrock/Stanton will propose a skyway connection from Eclipse into this block the next time that proposal pops up :?:
I guess it would depend on the timeline for this project and for Eclipse to make it work. It would be a real amenity for Eclipse residents, but aside from them it would effectively be a private connection (or maybe even an actual private connection since it would lead into Eclipse's parking ramp on level 2). Not sure if Stanton would pay the millions required to build it, or if the city/county would even allow it to cross over Hennepin.

John
Capella Tower
Posts: 2250
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 2:06 pm

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby John » December 18th, 2014, 7:12 pm

[quote="m b p"]
Image

The more images of this building I see, the better I like it. It feels like its meant to be here. It's unassuming and low key, yet feels elegant and strikingly modern. Has that sense of "quiet pride" and urban civility that architect Cesar Pelli so eloquently described as the essence of our city's character when he designed Wells Fargo. Will be the tallest building yet maintains a polite and respectful presence with our other famed skyscrapers. We will be very fortunate if its built.

Silophant
Moderator
Posts: 3897
Joined: June 20th, 2012, 4:33 pm
Location: The Gateway

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Silophant » December 18th, 2014, 7:31 pm

mattaudio wrote:So, this and the library would be disconnected from the rest of the skyway network until a point at which either the Ritz Block was developed, or a skyway was put through the Xcel 414 mezzanine (or possibly a utiliskyway above the alley behind 414 and the ramp, blocking 414's rear 2nd level windows - both options seem equally as unlikely).
Agree that neither of those is likely, but I could see the utiliskyway coming across at height of the second level of the ramp, which would put it at 414's mezzanine level, adjacent to the loading dock and beneath the windows. It would probably have to have to have a ramp up a little to get across 4th, but it could work. Alternately, a skyway from the library to the new hotel, which would require some internal rearranging of the library, but could be done.
twincitizen wrote:I wonder if Shamrock/Stanton will propose a skyway connection from Eclipse into this block the next time that proposal pops up :?:
I guess it would depend on the timeline for this project and for Eclipse to make it work. It would be a real amenity for Eclipse residents, but aside from them it would effectively be a private connection (or maybe even an actual private connection since it would lead into Eclipse's parking ramp on level 2). Not sure if Stanton would pay the millions required to build it, or if the city/county would even allow it to cross over Hennepin.
It would probably be more viable if it also included a (public) skyway across Washington to Whole Foods, though that would likely require the loss of an apartment or two for 222 Hennepin, but a skyway connection to a full grocery store would be a pretty big amenity for all the skyway-connected residential in this part of downtown.

sushisimo
Landmark Center
Posts: 232
Joined: June 2nd, 2012, 3:47 pm

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby sushisimo » December 18th, 2014, 9:26 pm

I thank mpb for the renderings; giving us perspective, massing, etc. I'm now not liking this Duvall proposal. It's like a giant 2008 flash drive up in the air. I kinda want to pay 40 million dollars to study a 5th proposal.

xandrex
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1367
Joined: January 30th, 2013, 11:14 am

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby xandrex » December 19th, 2014, 9:45 am

I really, really like the Duval proposal, but I sort of wish it was built closer to the core. I think it's architecturally interesting, but it towers over some of the other buildings in the area is a way that feels unnatural, I think it part because it's separated from other skyscrapers, with very little hope that it will be "connected" to them in the future (unless the Ritz block turns into something pretty spectacular and tall).

mullen
Foshay Tower
Posts: 986
Joined: June 4th, 2012, 7:02 am

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby mullen » December 19th, 2014, 10:07 am

it's a simple, elegant building. i hope they can round up financing so we're probably looking at least a 4 year process for a building this tall.

twincitizen
Moderator
Posts: 6260
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 7:27 pm
Location: Standish-Ericsson

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby twincitizen » December 19th, 2014, 10:39 am

You'll have to subscribe or get the print edition for the full story, but Sam Black has a roundup of the 4 proposals, with an interesting lede:
...if the city starts a project with a developer and can't get it done, it might be impossible to switch to a runner-up. So the City Council has some pressure to pick a team that can perform. To do this, the winning team will have to convince the city ...
http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/p ... loper.html

stockman
Block E
Posts: 13
Joined: July 19th, 2013, 7:35 pm

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby stockman » December 19th, 2014, 4:05 pm

How about not putting in all these skyways that people are talking about? Whatever happened to the talk of not building more skyways? Now we want to build out the system all the way down to Whole Foods, and hack a hole through our Cesar Pelli library? Nice.

This block will be better served, and this entire area of downtown, by NOT connecting into the skyway network. It will lead to a far more alive streetlife, and push attention more to street level retail instead of the boring mall-like stores and restaurants of the skyway level.

The city ought to approve a plan based on a skyway not being in it, and if the Library ought to say no to a connection as well.

xandrex
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1367
Joined: January 30th, 2013, 11:14 am

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby xandrex » December 19th, 2014, 4:08 pm

^What makes you think stores will get any more interesting just because they're on the street?

Tyler
Foshay Tower
Posts: 887
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 10:10 am

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Tyler » December 19th, 2014, 4:15 pm

The streets will be more interesting, at least.
Towns!

MNdible
is great.
Posts: 5831
Joined: June 8th, 2012, 8:14 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby MNdible » December 19th, 2014, 5:08 pm

The library was designed to accommodate three skyway connections, already built out with structure and internal circulation for them, so no hacking required.

But I do agree that Skyways should not extend across Washington or Hennepin.


Return to “Minneapolis - Downtown”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests