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nickmgray
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby nickmgray » December 19th, 2014, 8:03 pm

We already have skyways across Hennepin and Washinton. I despise what the skyways have done to this city's street life as much as the next guy, but being connected to the skyway system is a must for new developments like this in the core of the city. It's a "perk" for those who work in the building and something that downtown residents pay a premium for.

a_tribe_called_chris
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby a_tribe_called_chris » December 19th, 2014, 9:28 pm

I love the skyways in the Winter :)

stockman
Block E
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby stockman » December 19th, 2014, 9:31 pm

I get those points, but in this area, there is no connection currently to the library from 4th street and not sure who would pay for that connection, plus it is not reasonable to connect to the old fed building across the survivors park. So why would you connect the Nicollet block only to the library which connects to nothing else, right? What is the purpose served by connecting the Nicollet block into the network?

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Nathan
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Nathan » December 19th, 2014, 10:04 pm

Because one could assume that someday the Ritz block will be complete and connected.

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jw138
Union Depot
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby jw138 » December 20th, 2014, 11:03 am

Skyways serve an essential function to people who actually live and/or work downtown in a climate like ours. Without skyways the streets would certainly look more "alive" but I'd argue it might actually have a negative economic impact on the city core. It's likely far fewer downtown workers would walk to buy lunch on hot sticky summer days or in the cold winter months and instead opt to bring in food from home that was purchased outside of the core. Same likely applies for coffee and after-work happy hours. Rather than face the same outdoor walking conditions to gain access to other essential services (dentists, doctors, legal consulting, shopping, etc) it might be more appealing for many to drive to providers who have free parking right outside their front door further out in the city or suburbs.

Similarly, if the library were eventually connected to the rest of the skyway system its hard to imagine that its utilization wouldn't increase. With new build-out so close right next door it's a no-brainer to start that process due to the ease of doing so with new build-out (and the fact the library was built for it).

Elliot Altbaum
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Elliot Altbaum » December 20th, 2014, 4:31 pm

I'm sorry but I find the climate argument to be incredibly silly. Somehow everyone else in this state besides the downtown workers manages to get along with life without skyways. Everyone who lives in this city for more than a year learns how to dress for the weather. With the recent booming successes of various high end winter retailers you would think everyone would have bought a fashionable warm jacket by now. If it's too hot in the summer to walk with a full suit on, take of the jacket. If it is -5 put on a fancy wool long coat and walk briskly. 90% of working adults could walk outside for a couple minutes to get lunch. The fresh air isn't going to kill them.

This city and many more had and currently have functioning downtowns in climates that have weather. Oslo gets cold in the winter, Barcelona hot in the summer. As someone who grew up here, I have never understood the skyways.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby FISHMANPET » December 20th, 2014, 4:41 pm

The skyways seem to fall into the same "urbanist" category as increased parking. People, especially business owners, have the gut instinct that we need more of them. And the answer seems to often be more nuanced than that.

a_tribe_called_chris
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby a_tribe_called_chris » December 20th, 2014, 5:55 pm

Elliot Altbaum wrote:I'm sorry but I find the climate argument to be incredibly silly. Somehow everyone else in this state besides the downtown workers manages to get along with life without skyways. Everyone who lives in this city for more than a year learns how to dress for the weather. With the recent booming successes of various high end winter retailers you would think everyone would have bought a fashionable warm jacket by now. If it's too hot in the summer to walk with a full suit on, take of the jacket. If it is -5 put on a fancy wool long coat and walk briskly. 90% of working adults could walk outside for a couple minutes to get lunch. The fresh air isn't going to kill them.

This city and many more had and currently have functioning downtowns in climates that have weather. Oslo gets cold in the winter, Barcelona hot in the summer. As someone who grew up here, I have never understood the skyways.
I enjoy your perspective but even after 12 years the Winters are still brutal. The skyways are essential for many of my fellow office workers during the Winter. I have also heard this sentiment from countless out of towners. Outside of Canadian cities like Winnepeg or Montreal MSP has the most extreme Winters of any major North American city. I love the skyways and think St Paul actually as a better functioning system since there skyway is public domain and open much later.

Didier
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Didier » December 20th, 2014, 6:51 pm

People who work outside of downtown don't need skyways because they drive everywere.

Didier
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Didier » December 20th, 2014, 6:58 pm

I tend to agree that a skyway going into the library would diminish the building, though. Also I think the Duvall proposal is too tall for this area. Nothing in the area will be even close to this tall any time soon.

Record Machine
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Record Machine » December 20th, 2014, 7:14 pm

Not only does it still get brutally cold, the buildings create a piercing wind tunnel effect.

SixOneTwo
Nicollet Mall
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby SixOneTwo » December 20th, 2014, 8:23 pm

We should all have a debate over the merits of skyways in this thread. Everyone please be sure to get in your two cents.

web

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby web » December 20th, 2014, 10:14 pm

a_tribe_called_chris wrote:
Elliot Altbaum wrote:I'm sorry but I find the climate argument to be incredibly silly. Somehow
I enjoy your perspective but even after 12 years the Winters are still brutal. The skyways are essential for many of my fellow office workers during the Winter. I have also heard this sentiment from countless out of towners. Outside of Canadian cities like Winnepeg or Montreal MSP has the most extreme Winters of any major North American city. I love the skyways and think St Paul actually as a better functioning system since there skyway is public domain and open much later.
I was in Montreal and winnipeg last winter.....dec 19-jan 4

Montreal has a huge underground city BUT also has Rue St Catherines where it was about 5 degrees and snowing and still wall to wall walkers on the sidewalks shopping! Hard to walk because of the crowds

Elliot Altbaum
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Elliot Altbaum » December 21st, 2014, 1:02 am

To bring it back to this project: is a skyway a requirement as part of the RFP?
Slightly more general: Are the skyways more vigorously defended by business leaders, DT office workers, or city staff/politicians? I am honestly curious because as someone new to this particular topic. It has clearly been rehashed over and over. (Moderator: move to general DT thread?). People are willing to endure cold when they are entertained. See late season football or the thousands that lined the streets for the Holidazzle. Or Rue St. Catherines.

Chauncey87
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Chauncey87 » December 21st, 2014, 2:19 pm

xandrex wrote:I really, really like the Duval proposal, but I sort of wish it was built closer to the core. I think it's architecturally interesting, but it towers over some of the other buildings in the area is a way that feels unnatural, I think it part because it's separated from other skyscrapers, with very little hope that it will be "connected" to them in the future (unless the Ritz block turns into something pretty spectacular and tall).

I am sure over 40 years ago people said the same thing about the IDS. If the Duval proposal is built I am willing to bet it wont look out of place for to long.

I also found an old thread for general skyway talk if any of you want to keep going deeper into that topic.

https://forum.streets.mn/viewtopic.php?f=13& ... ays#p69208

nickmgray
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby nickmgray » December 21st, 2014, 4:07 pm

Elliot Altbaum wrote:To bring it back to this project: is a skyway a requirement as part of the RFP?
Slightly more general: Are the skyways more vigorously defended by business leaders, DT office workers, or city staff/politicians? I am honestly curious because as someone new to this particular topic. It has clearly been rehashed over and over. (Moderator: move to general DT thread?). People are willing to endure cold when they are entertained. See late season football or the thousands that lined the streets for the Holidazzle. Or Rue St. Catherines.
To my knowledge, there is no requirement to connect this project to the skyway and I don't believe that the city really cares. Those who care are the developers of the project since it's great selling point for potential tenants. Think of the skyway as paved path through a muddy stretch of forest. Yes, you can walk in the mud if you want to get you feet wet, but you'd rather stick the the paved path. Anything that's not connected to that paved path is penalized since it gets a lot less foot traffic.

seanrichardryan
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby seanrichardryan » December 21st, 2014, 4:13 pm

Actually, a skyway connection to the library is mentioned on page nine in the RFP. http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups ... 132418.pdf
Skyways/Connections
All proposals should have development concepts that are designed and constructed to
accept a skyway from the Minneapolis Central Library crossing Third Street South. This
skyway will be perpendicular to the centerline of South Third Street. The size and
location of the building opening will match that constructed at the Library. Potential
developers are encouraged to design and construct a skyway. The design of any such
skyway must be compatible with the design of the Library.
8-)
Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

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Nick
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Nick » December 21st, 2014, 6:01 pm

Seanrichardryan, it's just that kind of attitude that makes people not want to " post " on this blog.

Azel
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Azel » December 21st, 2014, 10:18 pm

twincitizen wrote:You'll have to subscribe or get the print edition for the full story, but Sam Black has a roundup of the 4 proposals, with an interesting lede:
...if the city starts a project with a developer and can't get it done, it might be impossible to switch to a runner-up. So the City Council has some pressure to pick a team that can perform. To do this, the winning team will have to convince the city ...
http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/p ... loper.html
[here's the rest of the intro to the BizJournal story] ... that it has the capital to pull off its plan. It will likely require a minimum of $50 million in equity to get any of these large-scale developments off the ground.
Since neither the city nor the developers have released anything about project budgets or the prices offered for the 1.7-acre site, it's impossible to do a side-by-side comparison until more details are made public. However, we know enough about the plans and partners to lay out some strengths and challenges for each proposal.

Azel
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Azel » December 21st, 2014, 10:19 pm

Has anybody seen or read or heard anything about the TV station that DuVal is talking to? How important is that news?


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