RBC Gateway & Four Seasons - 37 stories - 519'

[twincitizen]

his take about perhaps office space demand not so much driving the Duval proposal was interesting. i think it reads as someone who knows the market and the players who operate within it. lack of space is one of the factors which drives the building of tall towers in mega cities such as chicago and new york.

so would the tallest proposal go forward with some spec space. takes hubris to build an 80 story building here. but it took hubris to build the foshay tower and IDS. so maybe now's the time someone takes another leap of faith.

I think that's a good take and it depends on how much space they are proposing.

Another factor that will affect the leasing (mainly for office, but also residential) is the lack of a skyway connection until the Opus/Ritz block is developed. If this is actually built at this height, it will be several years yet before it opens, so I'm sure they (whoever wins development rights on this block) are paying very close attention to what Opus is doing next door. I think Class-A office space reaching for top of the market rents would struggle mightily without the skyway connection - unless they can find an anchor tenant who doesn't mind so much.

[nate]

70 surface lots dt? i guess someone counted. that's pathetic. I like his take on all of this.
http://www.startribune.com/local/minnea ... page=1&c=y

It was such a Minnesotan read. Very much a, "Hey, shouldn't we be looking at these more modest proposals?"

I couldn't tell if he was trying to cushion the blow for himself/us should Duval not be chosen or if he actually doesn't like it.

"Well by golly, those other companies are just so darn nice, how could we in good conscience not give it to one of them?"

I hope that this column is a case of a reporter sharing his personal opinion....and not parroting the things his contacts in City Hall are passing along to him.

[Wedgeguy]

Somewhere on this board there's an image of an old newspaper article with a picture of the original 950?-foot Norwest/WF Center design.

Yonder, towards the bottom:
https://forum.streets.mn/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=295&start=200

That was a beautiful tower, It ended up pretty much in Cleveland as Key Bank. Very similar design by Pelli.

[Wedgeguy]

What the author fails to inform the reader about, is that the tower will have 3 separate uses. 1/3 each of residential apartments, hotel, and office. 80 stories of a single use would be much harder to fill. But the residential portion is similar in size to many other apartment towers being built. The hotel is similar to other new hotels being built. And the office space is not too large either. A hotel will fill up its use, demand for apartments is still there, and the height of this tower will set it apart and give it a leasing advantage. So even if they dont lease any of the office (highly unlikely) it will still be 2/3 full.

I agree with all that you say. We have this single use concept that is stuck in too many heads. This is a MULTI-USE tower. Have we yet decided which sections of the tower go to each use? Top, middle, bottom.

[m b p]

I agree with all that you say. We have this single use concept that is stuck in too many heads. This is a MULTI-USE tower. Have we yet decided which sections of the tower go to each use? Top, middle, bottom.

To me, it looks like office space will be in the podium... particularly the part that rises to 8 floors. I don't think much office space is in the actual tower.

In general, residential floors are usually 10 ft... sometimes they are 12.5 ft. Office floors are 15 ft. If you divide 900 ft, in the tower, by 80 floors, you get 11.25 ft per floor average. Which means that not too many floors can be 15 ft or more.

From the pictures, we can see the first floor is approx 20 ft... followed by 7 more floors at 15'. That totals 8 floors and 125 ft.

if the tower is 80 floors and 900 ft, after subtracting 8 floors and 125 ft, we are left with 72 floors and 775 ft. 775 ft / 72 floors = about 10' 9" per floor.

My guess is the first 8 (or slightly more) floors are commercial. The next 67(or slightly less) floors are residential/hotel (primarily at 10' per floor... though some floors at 12.5'). Something different/special is happening with the crown (it looks like we have 5 additional floors at 15 ft per floor, but I can't imagine office space taking up that prime area. Perhaps restaurant/ballroom/etc?).

To simply put it: At 80 floors, if purely residential, you're looking at 800 ft. At 80 floors, if purely commercial, you're looking at 1200 ft. This building is 80 floors and 900 ft. It's got to be a lot of residential/hotel.

*edit... The highest possible number of commercial floors is 20. 20 x 15 = 300 ft. leaving 60 floors left at 10 ft per floor... to total 80 floors and 900 ft.

**edit again... 8-20 floors of office at the base. 55-67 floors of residential/hotel in the middle. 5 floors of crown at the top.

[sushisimo]

That is some excellent math. Makes sense. From the rendering, I was thinkin: East/West/Top, in dividing the space up. It has to do with that carve out. The east part with the trees on top would be the apartments. The equal tower portion behind that is the hotel. And, the rest of the tower (square footprint) upward is office space. But, I don't know if the ceiling heights add up correctly now.

[Wedgeguy]

Thanks you mbp for you analytical thoughts. You have it down much more than I did. Glad to get people think about this project as truly 3 small to mid sized projects that are stacked on top of each other.

As I pointed out in an early post. For me the most logical is for the Hotel to be on the lowest levels. There they can better use the green roof above the parking deck for patio and amenities. How the top to play out would be if you want your Residential to be the one using the negative space or the office. There really is not a bad choice. It would be how the developer decides which combination gives him the best ROI.

Happy Holidays all.

[Wedgeguy]

Thanks you mbp for you analytical thoughts. You have it down much more than I did. Glad to get people think about this project as truly 3 small to mid sized projects that are stacked on top of each other.

As I pointed out in an early post, (Pages 22 and 19). For me the most logical is for the Hotel to be on the lowest levels. There they can better use the green roof above the parking deck for patio and amenities. How the top to play out would be if you want your Residential to be the one using the negative space or the office. There really is not a bad choice. It would be how the developer decides which combination gives him the best ROI.

We have to not get caught up in the small details, the skyways and streetcar. The city will make sure that they are worked into the final project of whom ever they chose. These are all basic plans that will be revised into better projects that are more focused on the end product. There are several different ways to make any of these projects work. We just have to make sure that they do the best project and not just the cheapest project.

Happy Holidays all.

[David Greene]

The cut-out is the interesting part. Given a pure rectangle, it wold seem to make sense to stack uses on top of each other. Then you don't have multiple uses vying for the same elevators. Say residential is on top, then you have a bank of resident-only "express" elevators that go to the top 30 floors. A different bank serves the lower part of the tower and a third bank serves the podium.

With the cut-out, if the uses differ on either side, either you have multiple users on a bank of elevators or you do two separate banks serving the same floors. Then you still have to do some express elevators and podium elevators.

Maybe someone more knowledgeable about this can commit.

[Wedgeguy]

There are better experts here. But most times there are sets of elevator banks for each function. Similar to how there are different elevator banks in office towers for different grouping of floors, Lower half ,upper half. Here though you will most likely have separate entrances for each function. Elevator banks dedicated to each grouping of floors and their functions.

I'd say the hotels main doors would face Hennepin with the Office and Residential facing Nicollet, unless they actually build the woofner thru the block then they may have an entrance to something there. MO

[Anondson]

Lileks tackles the contenders in the Streetscapes column.

http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/286880401.html

[MPLS_Dispatch_Guy]

Lileks tackles the contenders in the Streetscapes column.

http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/286880401.html

It's a pretty good article some satire but overall I think he did a great job on the piece.....I think he gets what the city was looking for and trys to convey that via the story

[MountainDude]

http://www.seattle.gov/dpd/AppDocs/G...endaID5189.pdf

Well, this is curious (and yes, first time post). Stumbled on this while checking out Seattle's development news (amazing stuff happening out there). The project is a 440' residential tower (3rd and Lenora on SSC). On page 30 of the document, there's a rejected project proposal that looks similar to the Duval proposal. And then on page 38, there's a diagram of the crown, and the treatment sure looks similar to Duval. And the architect is Perkins + Will. Hmmm...almost looks like they took the rejected proposal, slapped 460' of glass box on top and used the same lighting treatment. Sure, architects use a blend of ideas all the time, but this is supposed to be a unique iconic building. So, is Duval just trying to get some company visibility with the proposal? If Duval is selected, will he work up a more unique proposal? Thoughts?

[versitalex]

http://www.seattle.gov/dpd/AppDocs/G...endaID5189.pdf

The ellipsis in the middle of the URL above breaks the link. Here's a corrected URL: http://www.seattle.gov/dpd/AppDocs/Grou ... ID5189.pdf

[mullen]

that Lileks piece is spot on. as usual he get's it. knows and loves dt mpls and wants it to thrive and go beyond mediocre. the Duval project is the only proposal that is not mediocre.

[bapster2006]

Latest article:

http://m.startribune.com/local/minneapo ... =/business

[Nick]

That new UP rendering looks waaaay better.

http://stmedia.startribune.com/images/o ... 060528.jpg

[uptowncarag]

That new UP rendering looks waaaay better.

http://stmedia.startribune.com/images/o ... 060528.jpg

Add 40 stories and the competition could heat up.

[twincitizen]

Heck, if you added just 10 stories to the United proposal it's still the tallest all-residential building in the city (if you consider the hotel portion to be separate). Generally speaking though, it is really hard to compare and contrast them since three proposals clock in between 30 and 36 stories, while Duval went all the way to 80 (but couldn't self-finance like the 3 big local firms). Right now we have one very ambitious proposal that is the obvious favorite, but might not be realistic, and three others that are very realistic but far too unambitious. A "mid-range" proposal of anywhere from 45-65 stories would make this a lot more interesting.

[uptowncarag]

Heck, if you added just 10 stories to the United proposal it's still the tallest all-residential building in the city (if you consider the hotel portion to be separate). Generally speaking though, it is really hard to compare and contrast them since three proposals clock in between 30 and 36 stories, while Duval went all the way to 80 (but couldn't self-finance like the 3 big local firms). Right now we have one very ambitious proposal that is the obvious favorite, but might not be realistic, and three others that are very realistic but far too unambitious. A "mid-range" proposal of anywhere from 45-65 stories would make this a lot more interesting.

I do agree and there should have been a 50 story minimum instead of the 20 that was layed out in the requirements for these developments.