RBC Gateway & Four Seasons - 37 stories - 519'

[acs]

No, the city shouldn't be hasty, but the two main criteria for selection United's proposal were project viability and density

[seanrichardryan]

Since none of you ninnies bothered to read the article, here's the meat-

Developer United Properties is working to replace both the residential partner and hotel partner for its 30- to 40-story
Gateway tower, according to Bill Katter, executive vice president of United Properties...
---
United Properties is in discussions with an unidentified condo developer that would put about 125 condos in the tower, Katter said.
The original hotel partner, Aimbridge Hospitality, also is out of the project, Katter said. United Properties is having discussions with a few hotel developers and operators about building a different 200-room hotel...
---
Katter is optimistic that the project will come together and that his company will announce new partners and a formal development deal with the city in August.

This is why mixed-use is tough. The sky is not falling. Duval is still dead.

[Silophant]

Yeah, I'd probably hold off on the bait and switch label unless and until they make a new, significantly downsized, proposal.

[Wedgeguy]

It is not United that pulled out of the projects, but the 2 partners that did not feel comfortable with proceeding with more market rate apartments at this time. Not sure what the issues was with the hotel developer and their reason for abandoning the project. IF they saw the apartments leave and were scared to wait and invest in a different project. But there are other developers and other hotel developers out there from which United can find new partners. I maybe happen to have a bit more faith in United, than say Opus & Mortensen right now.

[holmstar]

Not sure what the issues was with the hotel developer and their reason for abandoning the project.

Looks like they're moving elsewhere downtown:

If a hotel does go into the tower proposal, it won't be the Canopy by Hilton that United Properties originally proposed because that chain is slated for a different downtown project.

[Wedgeguy]

Not sure what the issues was with the hotel developer and their reason for abandoning the project.

Looks like they're moving elsewhere downtown:

If a hotel does go into the tower proposal, it won't be the Canopy by Hilton that United Properties originally proposed because that chain is slated for a different downtown project.

Hilton probably looked at the tea leaves and decided that other options would get build sooner once the apartment section fell thru at the Nicollet Block. I don't blame them at all. They have a deadline to Superbowl and we don't know how soon that United will get the project into the ground.

[acs]

How fitting that during this year of staggering setbacks this "iconic" project would fall apart too and take Duval's proposal with it.

[grant1simons2]

Take Duval with it? What on earth are you talking about? And besides transit what other "staggering" setbacks have happened? The only real thing that just happened to this project is it lost the apartments and the hotel. The hotel is going somewhere else and StaurtCo doesn't trust our market.

[Wedgeguy]

Take Duval with it? What on earth are you talking about? And besides transit what other "staggering" setbacks have happened? The only real thing that just happened to this project is it lost the apartments and the hotel. The hotel is going somewhere else and StaurtCo doesn't trust our market.

Have to agree with you Grant. This is not a staggering setback, this is a setback that happens more often than we know about because we don't know about proposals that are not locked in on Partnerships and financing. Hilton went a different direction when it became apparent that they might not be able to get their hotel open before the Super Bowl unless they found a different partnership that was ready to build very soon.
If United is able to get their ducks in a row very fast their hotel component still could beat the Hilton one to completion. BTW, what development is the New Canopy going to be apart of. Is it a stand alone or where will it be located at? Are we talking the 800 Washington as that is far from set in stone as to who the developer is going to be, out of the 3 in the running?
I see more positives from United than I have from other developers, I think they can get things lined up by the end of summer. Only time will tell if this is a 2017/18 completion or a 2019 completion. With the city holding United feet to the fire to produce, I think it will be soon over later.IMO

[GoodDaySunshine]

BTW, what development is the New Canopy going to be apart of. Is it a stand alone or where will it be located at?

Thresher Square, according to the Strib.

[acs]

And besides transit what other "staggering" setbacks have happened?

Do you need to ask? Let's see, so far in the year we've had:
Mosaic Phase 2 delayed/canceled
Stadium parking ramp development blocked by vikings/neutered
The commons park hamstrung by portland ave
This whole debacle with the Nicollet Hotel block which has only been trending downward
A rushed hackjob of a ritz block proposal which may only exist but to preempt the above project
The Alatus tower dying a slow death
Nyes proposal so far blocked by Nimby's
Target center cost overruns/another delay
a slew of vacancies and closings in both downtown and uptown
Target firing 1,600+ downtown workers
A MLS team and stadium proposed and killed by politicians

Did I miss anything? I'm not even going to touch transportation and transit because I don't want people drinking themselves to death out of sadness. 2015 so far has been a definite step backwards.

[Nick]

Huh, and I always thought I was a Negative Ned. There are tower cranes and new bike lanes and urban-minded policy changes all over the city. Everything will be fine.

[Minneboy]

Other than the Ritz Block and whatever may or may not happen on the Nicollet block the only other cranes that will shortly be downtown would be the the two Stinson projects, all others across the river.

Glass half empty or half full? I do feel that none of them are architectural masterpieces ....not even close.

[kirby96]

Glass is half full. The only reason there is that list of disappointments is because there's been so much activity the last few years. The chances of any given project going through aren't at all certain, so when you get a multitude of proposed projects over the past 2-3 years (good thing), you are going to get a pretty high number of disappointments and things that just fall through (inevitable thing). Unfortunately, I think the Nicollet Hotel Block is a likely disappointment, but that's just because too me it feels a bit too contrived to possibly live up to the way it was initially pumped. If one wishes to take the negative side, it's the lack of anything truly remarkable done in this recent cycle of activity, and also that the cycle is probably due to wind down a bit. Ain't gonna go on forever without a lull of some sort.

I think the what happens is that we get all these new residents 'settled in' downtown, and then they start organically creating an environment for more development, offices, schools, etc.. But I think that takes, say, 2-3 years before we really know the new levels of demand and what it can support.

[John]

I think the what happens is that we get all these new residents 'settled in' downtown, and then they start organically creating an environment for more development, offices, schools, etc.. But I think that takes, say, 2-3 years before we really know the new levels of demand and what it can support.

Yes, In 2-3 years the renovation of Nicollet Mall will be completed , the stadium will be open, and there will be a good sense of the economic impact on downtown of all the current projects going up. It might be better for the city to sit tight and be patient with The Nicollet Block property for awhile. In a few years, it will undoubtedly be more valuable and likely attract better proposals. I really don't think it benefits the city to have a half-assed development on one the best parcels downtown.

[TroyGBiv]

Someone needs a hug. But yes there have been set backs and delays. This is a normal cycle in development - markets get hot - too many proposals show up and things cool down and even stall out. The worst thing that can happen is for the market to build significantly beyond market need. Cities like Denver and Houston sat completely idle for way over a decade back in the 80's from the extreme overbuilding. We are not getting construction due to the oil boom... but it takes more market change to get an overbuilt market back up and growing.

[Wedgeguy]

acs, I have to agree with Kirby, you look at the glass nearly empty. It is normal for only about 45-55% of proposed project to get from conception to approval by the city, Of those many will wilt off the vine due to lack of funding or an unexpected change in the market, loss of a major tenant before ground has been broken. Has been happening for decades now that I have watched over and over again.
1: We are still getting the Commons with a smaller Portland running thru it. The park is still a very BIG go with final plans approved.
2:Those so called cost over runs at Target Center are them finally pulling their heads out of their A**ES and doing the job correctly and not skimping like was planned before. With the addition of the Block E practice facilities and moving of the team offices out of Target Center gave them new space that they could work with. They are now going to spend the extra money to make the arena a better functioning facility for their guests. They are going back to spending closer to what was originally proposed before they short change the renovation. This in the long run is a BIG plus for both the Team and the city.
3: Target is a business matter that had to be done with the shedding of Target Canada. While it might have been a good idea, the facts that caused the demise of Target Canada, Older non Target Spec buildings, A system to replenish their stores not adequate, Target bit off more than they could handle and it came back to bite them in the ass. Problems with acquisitions happen all the time. Target went on a hiring binge and when things crashed we got the brunt of it here in MPLS.
4: Tenants pull out of projects for what ever reason all the time. This is what happened with Mosaic, is Mosaic dead, I don't think so. Mosaic will be downsize closer to the original proposal and will eventually get built. I don't see Ackerberg sitting on their hands and giving up on the space. They want something built there as badly as we do.
5: The Canopy going from the Nicollet block to Thresher Square seem quite logical. Work on Thresher Square can start at anytime now. The old building will be separate from the apartments so they can be worked on with different time lines, while the Nicollet block had to have all the ducks in a row before they could get started with the project. We just moved one piece of the puzzle to a different project that will allow that project a better chance of getting started sooner and being delivered in time for the Super Bowl.
6: The Ritz and Nicollet block are wild cards in play. Opus put out a poor A** proposal to take some of the wind out of a competitor sails. They still have not given any indication as to a groundbreaking for the Ritz apartment phase 1. Like the Stuart Co., I think there are more than a few investors that have a wait and see attitude for large apartment towers at this point in time. Not everyone is rushing to invest in apartment until there is a better understand of the market that is developing downtown.
7: Right now there are how many proposed apartment towers in DT and Old St. Anthony. I think that some will have to go condo to survive the on slot of apartments. There is a condo market, we just don't know how deep of a market, as condos have really not be built with the exception of the Stanton projects that he financed himself. Funny thing is the condo market is short product at this time, but nothing really has gotten built that can be realistically sold to most buyer. 601 in NL was a bad joke. Stonebridge was sold out in less than a year and I could not believe there amount of presold that they had before the project was even half way out of the ground. The 801 Portland project will show in the next 6 months what kind of condo market there could be out there. How they do on presales will give other developers food for thought as to viability. Remember that the 801 is not in a prime location, so if it presells well, then there is a real market out there again for limited condo construction. I do not foresee another condo boom in the future. But what the market will bear.
8: The Soccer stadium mess was a disaster that can have blame spared all around. McGuire's group did a lousy job with giving the fact that they were expecting tax breaks until after they let the cat out of the bag. Those should have been discussed with the city, county, state long before the proposal was made public. They thought they could be a quick approval like nothing would be wrong, They thought they could paint politician into a corner, when it turns out they painted themselves into a corner. Maybe the MSL will give them a year to get the ducks in order as I'm not sure there are other cities that have the market potential that the Twin Cites has for a fan base and possible TV/radio market.
9: Which bring up the other stadium mess, The MSFA and their pettiness as to the parking ramp usage. They want tax payers to pay for a bridge that only benefits the Queens and yet they can't share part or allow an addition to the ramp that is needed to get the taxable addition to the ramp to be built. That is a JOKE in its own right. That is a mess I throw directly in the MSFA and Queens organization. They fucked things up and they need to pay for their own piss poor planning.

There is plenty that is still going on DT and the surrounding area, Your days of 6/8 or more cranes on the landscape is going to an end. Development/construction will be slowing down and taking more time to get from concept to final product to finished building. We can only build what the market will bear. But with any luck we will continue to expand the market and we will see steady growth in the years to come. I see things mellowing out for a few years as we look at how the current market VS the future market work out. Getting the mall remodeled, seeing if the new tenants in City Center actually make the podium a better shopping experience and if that will go across the street to Gaviidee and the filling of more of their retail space into real retail and less service oriented tenants. The sky is not falling, it is doing the same thing that it has been doing for years, but those were behind closed door. Where now they put things out there with hope that the PR will ignite interest and help them get their project off the ground. That explains my logic of why the glass is over half full. We just need a few years for the foundational blocks to get set and see from there what other project will build off their energy and location.

[BigIdeasGuy]

Can we all agree of the United proposal falls apart for whatever reason that the city should start back at the beginning a do a brand new RFP compared to going with either Mortenson's or Doran's mediocrity sitting on the back bench.

[Wedgeguy]

If United can't get their proposal built I think the city should step back and make a plan that is concrete in what they expect and not let them fudge their way under the proposal. I also feel that they need to open it up, when they do resubmit, to National Developers too. Give them a real time line that can allow for great proposals to be put for and not half ass schematics with no real foundation on how they plan to achieve it. The short period that the city gave is one of the reasons that this process is sinking so far.

[Minneboy]

If United can't get their proposal built I think the city should step back and make a plan that is concrete in what they expect and not let them fudge their way under the proposal. I also feel that they need to open it up, when they do resubmit, to National Developers too. Give them a real time line that can allow for great proposals to be put for and not half ass schematics with no real foundation on how they plan to achieve it. The short period that the city gave is one of the reasons that this process is sinking so far.

Totally agree. Maybe we can get something very tall and/or magnificently designed, that no matter what the residential situation is downtown, that this property will be the one people want to move in to.