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Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
Archiapolis
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Archiapolis » June 22nd, 2015, 3:10 pm

amiller92 wrote:
Archiapolis wrote:None but the boldest of families are going to move downtown (anywhere) without three things within very close walking distance: grocery stores (full service), parks/play space and schools. Right now two out of three are (almost) non-existent and thus, there are very few families.
Which two? There are parks, which you've explained away as not "destinations," probably accurately. But people who live right across the street aren't looking for a destination, they are looking for park functions many of which are there (missing a playground).
I don’t understand your point but to answer your question, parks and schools are missing.

Perhaps I am causing confusion…I want a great park in this area that has play space/open space for play. Forget that I said “destination.” I’m not looking for Disneyworld.

Gateway Park as currently designed is useless. Cancer Survivor’s Park is bad. Yes, they are not destinations, nor are they designed for “play.”

What is your point about “people who live across the street?” I’m not asking for a park on every block. If you were a family that lived in a theoretical project in the Bassett Creek area, do you realize how hard it would be to get to green space/open space/play space? Again, it’s fine if the consensus is that family’s aren’t desired “downtown” and it appears that this notion is becoming reality.

If a theoretical project at 3rd and Hennepin had 3 bedrooms (it won’t), where would a family go for play space? 4 blocks just to GET to green space and then a few more to get to a play space.
amiller92 wrote:And obviously there's a Whole Foods right there, and a pair of Lunds within a short drive (which is where a lot of families would start for groceries).
Grocery stores are the “one out of three” that are well-served.
amiller92 wrote:We're a very long way from developing every possible site.
Sorry, but this point sounds pedantic - I’m aware of the development patterns.

I am also aware that I’m an idealist so I’m asking questions that represent what I see as an interesting possibility: the idea that a family could live in a multi-family project in a dense, walkable place. I see possibility from North Loop to the Mill District IF there are good parks and schools. I'm willing to capitulate as I'm nobody of consequence and I appear to be in the minority.

Back to the speculation on the Nicollet Block...

Archiapolis
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Archiapolis » June 22nd, 2015, 3:38 pm

FISHMANPET wrote:So, sort of devil's advocate, but why should there be families in this area? Why would a family choose this area when there are many very urban, dense, transit accessible neighborhoods both surrounding Downtown and in other areas of the city, that would be more appropriate to raise children in? And from the other side, why would the city want to make the trade off of less taxable lands for more parks or even just the kind of regulations and design reviews etc etc that would lead to 3 bedroom units and other things that would make the area more family friendly?
No problem; I wouldn’t even say that your questions represent the “devil’s advocate”, I think it’s the majority opinion.

It sounds like the consensus is that there shouldn’t be families in this area. I don’t know a *new* way to say that this is fine. I am saying that it isn’t going to be possible if we continue the existing pattern. Just pointing it out.

Other than Loring Park which I’ve already identified as a model, could you give a few examples of the “many very urban, dense, transit accessible neighborhoods” that are anything like this area or Loring Park?

What do you mean by “more appropriate?” The only reason “downtown” (from North Loop to Seven Corners) seems “inappropriate” for families is that there is little to no play space and no schools - these are exactly the items that I’ve cited as making it very difficult for families to be in these areas. It’s chicken and egg.

I don’t think the city would want to put tax burdens (parks and schools) ANYWHERE when they could have tax revenue positive development. Same for regulation and design review - there is no desire for it on the part of the city. I'm asking if "we" agree with this assessment. Looks like "we" do.

I can recall some articles being written about families living “downtown” and the difficulties that they encounter and there is also this group

http://northloop.org/nl-kids/

So, the concept of families living downtown isn’t ludicrous. There are families downtown DESPITE the challenges that I describe so obviously they see the positives to such a lifestyle. Again, this is a chicken/egg issue. If we don’t put play space and schools downtown then it’ll be a moot point - there will be a few outliers but families won’t live there. I’m just challenging the notion that it’s not desirable for families to live downtown.

I’ll let you all have the last word/get this back on track to Nicollet Block…

PigsEye

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby PigsEye » June 22nd, 2015, 3:45 pm

Some good points. I guess the concept of families on Nicollet Hotel block might be a bit of a stretch. Yet, we have a new downtown charter school opening in downtown east that will help attract more families. Though other places like Loring, and Stevens communities might also be a better fit for most. I'm sure bold parents may be willing to try as there are several daycares in the downtown area and increasing retail too. Lets just look back 5 years, when the only downtown grocery we had was Target! It's much easier for a family to live downtown now than 5 years ago. I would only think it's safe to assume that trend will only continue. Eventually with all these skyway connected 2 and 3 br. units we might even see another skyway connected school. It does seem pretty desireable concept year round safe transit options besides the traditional bus or dropping your child off before driving to work yourself. I wonder what this community may look like in 20 years from now. Perhaps downtown Minneapolis maybe one of the few downtown communities that is the least car focused community outside of NYC lol. Nicollet Hotel Block will be a very important piece to that community if there is any hope of success.

MNdible
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby MNdible » June 22nd, 2015, 3:47 pm

I'm all for providing parks that are geared towards kids; I just don't think that this particular site is the right one for this to happen. I'd much rather see an urban plaza that's ringed by active uses. Fingers crossed, that's exactly what the United Properties plan could achieve.

grant1simons2
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby grant1simons2 » June 22nd, 2015, 3:54 pm

How about a kid friendly theater in downtown? Or a smaller Children's Museum? Or more museums about strange things that kids would find fascinating? Like "Lester Geemesters' Home of the Strange and Wild Mississippi" which could be a collection of weird things pulled out of the Mississippi and facts about the rivers relations to the city. Sorry for the OT, but I had the thought over the weekend and now seemed like an appropriate time.

John
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby John » June 22nd, 2015, 10:30 pm

MNdible wrote:I'm all for providing parks that are geared towards kids; I just don't think that this particular site is the right one for this to happen. I'd much rather see an urban plaza that's ringed by active uses. Fingers crossed, that's exactly what the United Properties plan could achieve.
Agree, A child oriented park is not the right fit for this block. But I'm enthusiastic about one located somewhere in the North Loop or along the riverfront. We really should encourage families with children to live and stay downtown.

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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby alleycat » June 22nd, 2015, 10:38 pm

The North Loop has one of the nicest playgrounds in Minneapolis. It's extremely walkable or bikable from the neighborhood. Heck, I bike there with my toddler in our bike trailer and I live near Broadway/Penn over north.

http://goo.gl/maps/ECQFy
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grant1simons2
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby grant1simons2 » June 22nd, 2015, 10:47 pm

I was there last week at about 6 or 7 and saw 15 kids maybe? Still North Loop needs a more central green space with at least 1 kid friendly thing to do

nickmgray
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby nickmgray » June 26th, 2015, 10:25 am

As a father of a 3 and 6 year old, I can tell you that kids don't need a lot of open green space. All they really care about is a playground with a few slides and some swings. All we need is a real elementary school in the North Loop with a decent playground that's open to the public. Personally, I wouldn't choose to live on this block with my family Not because there's no playground close by, but because I wouldn't want to live is such a high-trafficked area with little "community." What I'm typically looking for is a unique neighborhood feel for our family - something that's a bit lacking in the central business district.

seanrichardryan
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby seanrichardryan » July 28th, 2015, 1:41 pm

This popped up in my twitter feed. Must have been locked last month. Thought I'd add it to the conversation.

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/p ... -plan.html
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amiller92
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby amiller92 » July 28th, 2015, 3:54 pm

Archiapolis wrote: Gateway Park as currently designed is useless. Cancer Survivor’s Park is bad. Yes, they are not destinations, nor are they designed for “play.”

...

If a theoretical project at 3rd and Hennepin had 3 bedrooms (it won’t), where would a family go for play space? 4 blocks just to GET to green space and then a few more to get to a play space.
If you mean "playground" when you say "park," I take your point. There's not much for playgrounds around.

But then you also seem to use "green space" interchangeably, which does not make sense. A theoretical project at 3rd and Hennepin has green space directly across Nicollet in Cancer Survivor's Park, directly across Washington in Gateway Park/the semi-public plaza, and arguably directly across Hennepin in an open lot (typically grassy, but subject to development plans too).

None of those have playgrounds, but they do have accessible spaces where kids could, and likely would if there were any around, play informally. They aren't places that adults would necessarily look at and see "play space," and maybe that's your point, but they are definitely "green space."

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jw138
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby jw138 » July 28th, 2015, 5:06 pm

From the article:
30- to 40-story, mixed-use tower
...
Because condos are larger than apartments, the number of residential units will decrease from about 300 to 150.
Does that mean it's more likely that the final height will end up towards the higher end (40-stories) than the lower end (30-stories)? I seem to remember prior discussions about the low availability of downtown condos.

PigsEye

Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby PigsEye » July 29th, 2015, 11:30 am

I can't say I'm not disappointed about the decrease in units by switching from apartments to condos. Within 2-10 years I very well may be shopping for a condo for myself. From what I been finding there are not to many smaller size condo units. Everything seems to be new and modern and expensive. a lovely skyway connected studio unit with just the basics in the 100-150K range would be just wonderful. I hope we see more diversity in building condos downtown, thought I wonder if everything will again be focused on the luxury market.

Also I wonder what is going on with Eclipse across the street from this site. Hopefully they are still confident in the surrounding developments and still want to provide a skyway connection. Might be a great opportunity for some skyway retail and be a fantastic stepping down (like Hyatt Regency) to street level. Though it would be much busier given the Whole Foods and large amount of housing units within a few blocks too. I guess I will have to do some searching for info on Ritz block to, this whole corridor was a bit of a collective development, I hope we see it development all at the same time.

TroyGBiv
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby TroyGBiv » November 20th, 2015, 12:16 am

I just saw this article... is it just me - this proposed tower looks a lot like the Duval project proposed for Minneapolis... It is taller but has a lot of the same exterior elements.

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/re ... aper-club/

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jw138
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby jw138 » November 20th, 2015, 10:08 am

Looks eerily familiar to me! We really need to finish building out all our downtown parking lots so we stand a better chance of developing something like this too!

bapster2006
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby bapster2006 » December 4th, 2015, 11:10 am

The process to sell this block is moving forward:

http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/www/gro ... 152671.pdf

nordeast homer
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby nordeast homer » December 4th, 2015, 11:50 am

Thanks for the update, at least it appears things are progressing.

Wedgeguy
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Wedgeguy » December 4th, 2015, 12:07 pm

Wonder what will become of that transit hub that they have moved once to make room for the Cowles Theater? Where can we move it to now that it can truly be a functional shelter? The corner it was on I don't think it ever got used much at all.

grant1simons2
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby grant1simons2 » December 4th, 2015, 12:09 pm

The design of the shelter is not functional, so the site wouldn't matter. It's way too big and bulky.

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Nathan
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Nathan » December 4th, 2015, 12:49 pm

A suburban park and ride along the new lrt lines?


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