RBC Gateway & Four Seasons - 37 stories - 519'

[Wedgeguy]

50 times better than the Opus towers across Nicollet. Will hold judgement to see if there is some lighting for the night time along the Hennepin Ave side and top of the building. I like seeing the retail that is along the Nicollet ave side of the complex and that there is retail on the north corner of Washington and Hennepin. I do like the angled corners of the tower and the escalators on the plaza that will lead to the skyway level. Look forward to seeing how they lay out the skyway level and what they include up there. I give it an 8 out of 10 because I was wishing for a more bold design. But with the angles and the glass facade I see it as a more minimalist tower that just might surprise us once it is up in the air. I feel like I will like it more as more detailed design and more info is released about it.

I think this is a bit more than conceptual. But there will still be time for tweaks to the complex before it goes to CoW.

[TroyGBiv]

Not bad - I like that it has a modern exterior... I am a little brick/brown/tan exhausted... My floor count here is 36... not that that matters at this phase in the rendering. I do like the view of it looking north with all of the green space - feels more urban park-like.

[Nathan]

Yeah I'm a little disappointed that it's lost its staggered block look, but am happy about all that glass. Looks nice and clean, I also love the acute angles, those are always really dynamic for a structure. I can't wait to see the details flesh out a little more, the plaza looks nice but the "podium" still feels a little clunky to me, I think we need a really engaging space and it seems really banal. One of the best looking projects for me lately.

[transplant]

From the renderings this looks very preliminary and most importantly without real world detail. The glass curtain wall looks slick and clean but in reality will probably not look like that. I hope I am wrong but I am guessing the "look" here is a product of a quick rendering vs. real design intent. I would guess the curtain wall will look more like Bookman Stacks which I think looks good on the scale of the Stacks but may not look so good on the scale of a 30+ story high-rise or at least not as refined as a slick glass curtain wall. Time will tell...

[trigonalmayhem]

What's with the double parking lanes on the Hennepin side? That's super not urbane and would definitely cause more than a few headaches with buses. I guess they've just given up on the bus lanes entirely at this point anyway though.

[Wedgeguy]

I see no need for the buses to stop on that block with a stop on the Library and the block up past Washington. I'd like to see an every other block where it is not needed. Can't say that I remember any stops on that side of the block anyway.

I see that parking as a proposal which would have to pass the city traffic to get approval . I think there they would run into resistance due to the number of buses that pass by the block. They will probably have to look at an entrance like the Lat45 where they are off the street and set back into the building, but still able to get 2 car past each other in the portico. I would not let your undies get bunched up about what you see as set in stone. When they do conceptual they don't always get into the nitty gritty and the fine details. They are making a conceptual proposal that they take to the city and the city says yes and no to different aspects of their design. I honestly don't know when they would have the need for 14 spaces for cars at one time. The parking proposal is more than a bit of over kill.

[sushisimo]

I think it's a drop-off area servicing the hotel lobby, in lieu of a full-on porte-cochère.

[Silophant]

I also think that looks like the plan. But, like Wedgeguy said, it has to get by the city, and I don't see them agreeing to that. However, the bus stop on that block should go away, even though it's the one I use when I bus to work.

[Nathan]

Isn't the stop on that block the last stop for all of the Downtown only 4's and 6's? they don't stop past Washington... though it would be nice if they stopped at 1st or 2nd.

I don't mind the double lane for drop off as it probably wouldn't be super busy they majority of the time.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the HUGE curb cut on 3rd. Is it better to have one big service entry and none elsewhere (besides streetcar) or would having more scattered smaller ones around the block be better "urbanism"? I feel like the Streets always end up taking the brunt of parking and curb cut downtown, and the avenues are pretty decent. but it leaves for a lacking environment trying to get from avenue to avenue.

[trigonalmayhem]

Why would you want to eliminate the bus stop on the same block as what will essentially be a transfer hub between streetcar and nicollet buses? If the bus stops there it brings the Hennepin buses into that too and ties them all together. If you make buses skip that block it's hideously stupid if you actually want to make transit easier to use.

I'm also not thrilled about that curb cut on third, but it is slightly less offensive to me than the double parking thing. My issue is that if it's not busy, it adds another twentyish feet to the street width which will probably have a psychological effect on drivers to encourage speeding. If it is heavily used it's going to be a mess of cars turning in and out in front of buses. Plus the design would seem to preclude having a bus stop, which is dumb for reasons I stated above. Also if it's supposed to be a drop of or valet kind of thing, it only really works for taxis dropping off because the circulation means they're going for a pretty long drive to get back to that curb cut on third to get access to the parking.

[grant1simons2]

It's very possible they forgot to just draw it in. It's happened before.

[mattaudio]

Wouldn't this also be an excellent time to reduce 3rd Street to 2 through lanes along this block as part of the project?

[PhilmerPhil]

Hennepin will be fully reconstructed in 2020 I believe. Advocacy for a protected bikeway has already begun. How would this situation interfere with those goals?

[Wedgeguy]

Wouldn't this also be an excellent time to reduce 3rd Street to 2 through lanes along this block as part of the project?

Except that 3rd is a major route to get onto 394 on the north end. Doubt the city traffic would even look to shrink it ,especially that close to the entrance. I walk across that section of the mall a lot at the during evening rush hour and that section of 3rd is full of traffic. from 4 until at least 6. Plus 3rd would probably be one of the main exits to the west after stadium event in the DTE.

[amiller92]

Wouldn't this also be an excellent time to reduce 3rd Street to 2 through lanes along this block as part of the project?

Except that 3rd is a major route to get onto 394 on the north end. Doubt the city traffic would even look to shrink it ,especially that close to the entrance. I walk across that section of the mall a lot at the during evening rush hour and that section of 3rd is full of traffic. from 4 until at least 6. Plus 3rd would probably be one of the main exits to the west after stadium event in the DTE.

There tends to be some stacking between Marquette and Hennepin at the peak of rush hour, but not to the extent you're suggesting. Might still be enough to "need" the existing number of lanes, but let's be cautious about overstating the amount of inconvenience experienced by those who choose to drive during the (relatively short) busiest periods of the day.

There is no way we should maintain unsafe infrastructure for occasional post-event crowds. Those people can wait and/or learn to take transit.

[trigonalmayhem]

Yeah I'm kind of sick of quick access to highway ramps for suburban commuters driving our city street design.

[mattaudio]

Since this also involves the relationship between this building and the sidewalk, curb cuts, and even street design:
I wish there was an opportunity to leverage more connections between buildings underground for loading docks, service access, and even parking access/egress. It seems like we waste an awfully large portion of the streetwall of these contemporary projects on vehicular accesses.

On a related note, it seems ridiculous that this project only contains three ground floor retail locations and one ground floor restaurant. Granted, they are all thousands of square feet. But that's really pathetic for a building that occupies a (small) full downtown block with four blockfaces of street frontage - about 1400 linear feet. Compare that to any prewar development (much of which has been knocked down Downtown) and you see the stark difference.

Even "streetcar corners" in the neighborhoods do much better. I live near 48th and Chicago, which is a nice but not particularly noteworthy urban corner. The total "street wall" of the commercial corner is 1382 feet, less than the "street walls" of the four blockfaces of the Nicollet Hotel Block. Yet, instead of 3 storefronts and 1 restaurant, it has 17 storefronts and 11 restaurants.

How pathetic is it that we only expect to get a tiny fraction of the sidewalk activation, trip generation density, and Gehl Door Average on a city-owned downtown block compared to a classic-yet-boring streetcar node?

[Wedgeguy]

3rd and Washington are the only direct route from the east that goes thru to 394, 5th doesn't due to the LRT. 7th, 9th and 11th all share the same entrance at 1st which requires left hand turns onto 1st before they can get anywhere near the entrance to 394. Washington requires a left hand turn that has a limited arrow and then you are waiting against on coming traffic which will only increase as the NL develops further. These are the things that I don't over look when I suggest something. I look at the whole picture and not just some small snap shot. Like I also said. I'm looking at future traffic from the stadium. You plan ahead and look at what could happen so that you are not wasting tax dollars to shrink something that will then be found to be a big mistake and then have to spend more money to get it back to ab acceptable status. I know that is hard for some to comprehend, but I've watch these kind of screw ups for 30+ years and they do not look pretty and it only makes things worse for a larger number of people in the end.

Closing Nicollet for Kmart was one of the biggest screw up and we are still trying to fix that at what kind of price tag.

[mattaudio]

Won't someone think of the cars?

[Nathan]

On a related note, it seems ridiculous that this project only contains three ground floor retail locations and one ground floor restaurant. Granted, they are all thousands of square feet. But that's really pathetic for a building that occupies a (small) full downtown block with four blockfaces of street frontage - about 1400 linear feet. Compare that to any prewar development (much of which has been knocked down Downtown) and you see the stark difference.

Even "streetcar corners" in the neighborhoods do much better. I live near 48th and Chicago, which is a nice but not particularly noteworthy urban corner. The total "street wall" of the commercial corner is 1382 feet, less than the "street walls" of the four blockfaces of the Nicollet Hotel Block. Yet, instead of 3 storefronts and 1 restaurant, it has 17 storefronts and 11 restaurants.

How pathetic is it that we only expect to get a tiny fraction of the sidewalk activation, trip generation density, and Gehl Door Average on a city-owned downtown block compared to a classic-yet-boring streetcar node?

I dunno about you but I consider the hotel as retail as well... and I thin the lobby entrance and entrances to the apartments work to activate the street as well. That circular vestibule is very welcoming and I think also acts as activation. I would like to see a larger shared indoor space though, like a mini crystal court would be amazing!