RBC Gateway & Four Seasons - 37 stories - 519'

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
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Nick
Capella Tower
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Nick » March 26th, 2015, 4:01 pm

Soo Line, technically.
Nick Magrino
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MNdible
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby MNdible » March 26th, 2015, 4:32 pm

Didn't LPM end up with less than 1:1, or am I misremembering?

Archiapolis
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Archiapolis » March 26th, 2015, 4:41 pm

Didn't LPM end up with less than 1:1, or am I misremembering?
I'm glad that there might, kind of, technically be some examples of "market rate" multi-family housing that may or may not have 1:1 parking. I just want to remind everyone that I wrote, "pursue" (1:1 parking), not "end up with" and, that I haven't exhaustively scrutinized every proposal evar. I CAN say that I have never been in a room with a developer and heard them say, "The city wants X parking, I want less than X" but I'm just one inconsequential guy.

There might be some examples of those that didn't *pursue* 1:1 parking but they would be the exception, not the rule (in my experience).

MNdible
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby MNdible » March 26th, 2015, 4:59 pm

Yeah, and I wasn't really responding to you, just to the line of thought. Again, my recollection was that the developer wanted provide less than 1:1 for LPM, and because they were building all of their parking in a podium, they presumably could have added more if they thought it made sense. Anyway, I've championed your underlying point, which I take to be that the market often demands a certain amount of parking, regardless of whether or not the city does.

For this site in particular, I'm assuming they can do two levels of underground parking. The lot dimensions are 330' x 185'-260' (remember it's a trapezoid). So, lets do some crude math:

Let's take 330' x 185' (ignoring the area in the wider part of the trapezoid which doesn't lay out for parking very efficiently but can probably be used for access to the ramp, vertical circulation, extra tandem parking, and/or a loading dock) as our base floor plate.

330 x 185 = 61,050 sf

61050 x 2 floors = 122,100 sf

A rough planning figure, including circulation, is 300-350 sf / parking stall. Even if we take the higher end, that still gives us about 350 stalls, using pretty conservative assumptions and not including any tandem stalls. And since hotels really don't need very many parking spaces, that seems pretty workable.

TroyGBiv
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby TroyGBiv » March 26th, 2015, 10:55 pm

The RFP for this block asked for (iconic) which will probably appear here as (WORD NOT FOUND) but ignoring that constant glitch - I think that this block has had a number of challenges. There is a strong argument to have made this a park because the city planners have wanted there to be a strong green space connection to the river. The city council also wanted to see a focal point structure that continues to build density and eliminates one more highly visibility surface parking lot.
The reality of renderings versus actual constructed buildings is that they often don't resemble each other. One great example of this is the Walker Art Center addition - the cube - the architects proposed using a material that really didn't exist per se... what is installed was identified long after they had been selected to design the project. Not that what they have is bad... just not anything like the pitch design. I think Archiapolis raises some valid points - a lot changes from concept to execution. The biggest variable is the exterior lighting concept. I hope it exceeds its initial renderings. I am excited no matter what gets built - I have to see so many surface lots across the city.

Archiapolis
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Archiapolis » March 27th, 2015, 8:09 am

Yeah, and I wasn't really responding to you, just to the line of thought. Again, my recollection was that the developer wanted provide less than 1:1 for LPM, and because they were building all of their parking in a podium, they presumably could have added more if they thought it made sense. Anyway, I've championed your underlying point, which I take to be that the market often demands a certain amount of parking, regardless of whether or not the city does.

For this site in particular, I'm assuming they can do two levels of underground parking. The lot dimensions are 330' x 185'-260' (remember it's a trapezoid). So, lets do some crude math:

Let's take 330' x 185' (ignoring the area in the wider part of the trapezoid which doesn't lay out for parking very efficiently but can probably be used for access to the ramp, vertical circulation, extra tandem parking, and/or a loading dock) as our base floor plate.

330 x 185 = 61,050 sf

61050 x 2 floors = 122,100 sf

A rough planning figure, including circulation, is 300-350 sf / parking stall. Even if we take the higher end, that still gives us about 350 stalls, using pretty conservative assumptions and not including any tandem stalls. And since hotels really don't need very many parking spaces, that seems pretty workable.
Not trying to be argumentative - just trying to make a point the point that projects with less than 1:1 are the exception not the rule which you seem to be agreeing with. For the record, I don't LIKE that this is the norm and I feel like the urbanist crowd should be pushing the city on it.

As for the size of the overall site and the parking numbers. I won't dispute your math. In order to put a finer point on it, you could also look at an 18' stall depth + 22' drive aisle + 18' stall depth and that would give you a double loaded drive aisle at 48'. 8.5' stall width with three stalls to a structural bay (16" to 24" column +/- 1' each side of the column for a total of 27.5' "clear" between columns and 28.5' center to center. Then you need turns, elevators, utility rooms, etc.

Last thing which relates to all of this is "truth in renderings." The trees shown on the renderings are mature at about a 25' canopy. Any landscape architect would laugh you out of the room if you said that you'd like to get a 25' tree from an extensive planter box (a 3-4' deep planter on top of the parking structure). In order for this "park-like" place to have mature trees with 25' canopies, it would require growing depths of 15' feet which would significantly cut into those parking numbers. The easy answer is that they will NOT cut parking for tree sizes so you can pretty much guarantee that every tree shown in that "park-like" plaza will be closer to 8-12 feet.

acs
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby acs » June 16th, 2015, 11:45 am

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/b ... s-out.html

Apartments out, 125 condos in. Hilton Canopy out. Frey and United seem to be pretty confident but the former apartment developer's comments about the market aren't exactly encouraging.

LakeCharles
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby LakeCharles » June 16th, 2015, 11:51 am

Good thing viability was our only criterion for picking the project. :)

grant1simons2
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby grant1simons2 » June 16th, 2015, 12:26 pm

They really didn't seem to know the market too well. Pretty conservative if you ask me seeming that every report coming out recently is showing positive growth downtown. But, it's their loss.

Gman12
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Gman12 » June 16th, 2015, 12:40 pm

It boggles my mind they wouldn't be comfortable building market rate apartments in the downtown market when supply is severly lacking and there is pent up demand for affordable downtown apartments.

mnmike
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby mnmike » June 16th, 2015, 12:59 pm

Is that sarcasm perhaps? Market rate is the same as all the other apartments going up....and we need to make sure the ones we have going up will fill. Probably the recent report of the 8.8% vacancy rate downtown has scared them. Now, I think a lot of that was just brand new empty units fresh on the market...but I do think now would be a good time to slow down and make sure the ones we have opening are absorbed! I don't really have high hopes for this project being anything special though :( Unless they can get some really great use in at the base. Probably a good idea to not just have 300 more apartments here though...but what could go here that would make it a bit more special!?

amiller92
Wells Fargo Center
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby amiller92 » June 16th, 2015, 1:04 pm

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/b ... s-out.html

Apartments out, 125 condos in. Hilton Canopy out. Frey and United seem to be pretty confident but the former apartment developer's comments about the market aren't exactly encouraging.
Hasn't there been like zero condos added to downtown since 2008, while there have been literally a bazillion (literally) apartments? The shift kind of makes sense from the lay perspective.

mnmike
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby mnmike » June 16th, 2015, 1:08 pm

yeah, there really is a lot of demand for downtown condos...but where the demand is really high is in the 200-350k range...and I doubt these would be there:(

go4guy
Foshay Tower
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby go4guy » June 16th, 2015, 1:12 pm

This news just makes it even more mind boggling that the city rushed thru the RFP. The timeline was was way too soon. They kicked out one developer because they couldnt come up with financial backing soon enough, yet United is now going to end up proposing a much different concept. They should have given everyone more time to provide a good solid proposal, instead of forcing everyone to throw something together on such short notice.

mnmike
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby mnmike » June 16th, 2015, 1:18 pm

Would be nice if they could give United another time limit to come up with a new solid proposal and if they don't, move on.

I guess with the timeline on this being further out than so many other projects, it did seem difficult to me to nail down the uses and if they would fit in to market demand. I mean, timelines are kind of tough, if the RFP is too long, the proposed uses for the development could be overbuilt when it comes time to secure financing for construction. I really hope that at least the base of this building can be something more unique for the area.

go4guy
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby go4guy » June 16th, 2015, 1:22 pm

Would a longer RFP allow the developers to secure all aspects of the project, including financing, so once the developer is decided, construction can start that much sooner?

TroyGBiv
US Bank Plaza
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby TroyGBiv » June 16th, 2015, 1:24 pm

The demand for condos is high - there is a couple planned for the Guthrie neighborhood - but those have a lot of retirees, and empty nesters moving back into town. Condos have lagged in development because of some legislation/law regarding how long the building developers are responsible/liable for building issues. I don't know much about it but I know that has been an issue. I am glad to see some condos on that end of the mall. The two potential residential apartment towers on the Ritz site might be the main reason for this change. This project feels a bit questionable right now. I still feel like the process was rushed too much. A few more months might have allowed national developers to pitch and may have secured stronger partnerships.

mnmike
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby mnmike » June 16th, 2015, 1:24 pm

Yeah, I am not sure...but to me, it seems like construction start (or possible start date at least) has to be as close as possible to the deciding date on these things for them to work best. We kind of see the same thing going on with the stadium ramp air rights development, but then, that one had the complex issue of the ramp being built with the possible future development in mind.

TroyGBiv
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby TroyGBiv » June 16th, 2015, 1:34 pm

To me the condo shift may make this development more likely.

Azel
Metrodome
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Azel » June 16th, 2015, 1:37 pm

United Properties guy put the percent chance this development moves ahead at 75 percent. What do you folks think?


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