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talindsay
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby talindsay » January 4th, 2015, 10:19 pm

Iconic is a really high bat for anything to meet including a building. In my opinion for something to be iconic it has to be something that is burned into people brain that they will never forget. There aren't that many iconic buildings in the world. The Freedom Tower is iconic, the Statue of Liberty is iconic, Burj Khalifa is iconic, the Shanghai Tower is iconic, the Eiffel Tower is iconic, Big Ben is iconic. There are a few more but not many. There was never going to be an iconic building on this block. Hell I would argue that the Twin Cities don't have an iconic building, that's not a shot at DT MPLS or StP that's simply a result of having such a high bar to clear.

I think the city set the bar too high and instead of using iconic they should have used signature. The IDS is a signature building as is Wells Fargo and Capella. I would argue the Guthrie is also signature building. The Duval proposal is a signature, yes partly because of it's height. The Mortenson proposal isn't nor is the Doran. The UP proposal solid but I don't know if it's a signature building. That's why I think the Duval proposal is the one the city should choose.
Really good points. I'd like to add that "iconic" is earned, not built - personally I wouldn't say the "Freedom Tower" is iconic per se at this point - the vast majority of people in the US, nevermind the world, wouldn't recognize a picture of it. The same is even somewhat true of the Burj Khalifa at this point. The Eiffel Tower is iconic - an entire trip to Europe is often (sadly) reduced to a picture or trinket of the Eiffel Tower. Big Ben is the same way. The Gateway Arch is the only midwestern structure outside Chicago that stands any chance of being "iconic", And Chicago's only real contenders are the Sears Tower (because it used to be the world's tallest) and John Hancock (because it's really distinctive).

I do think your post also focuses on height as a defining characteristic of "iconic" which seems a shame - many of the world's most iconic buildings aren't very tall. Without getting into ancient structures, the Sydney Opera House, the Guggenheim, the Grande Arche de la Défense (which admittedly *is* pretty tall), the US Capitol, the Houses of Parliament (including Big Ben), the Brandenburg Gate, the Arc de Triomphe are just a few examples of buildings that most people in the *world* recognize immediately but aren't tall. The only supertall building that likely belongs in that company is the Empire State Building, and possibly the World Trade Center towers while they stood; perhaps people outside the US generally recognize the Sears Tower, Chrysler Building, and John Hancock Tower, but I doubt it. Supertall monuments probably fare better: the Eiffel Tower and the Statue of Liberty are broadly recognized, and the CN Tower may be as well, though even there I wonder how well the world is aware of the Arch.

Anyway, if I were a betting man I'd guess that our structure most likely to be recognized outside the Twin Cities isn't very tall at all: the new Guthrie Theater. It was designed by a very famous architect and has a pretty inspiring design. Still not "iconic" by any means, but if Minneapolis were to end up on the map it seems more likely the Guthrie would be captured than any generic same-old tower. One steel-and-glass tube looks a lot like the next to the average non-architecturally-inclined person.

So I agree that "iconic" was too high a bar, but I'll go further to suggest that height isn't too likely to make something meet that bar, unless it's truly world-topping. I know people around here talk about Cleveland having a really tall building, but I couldn't pick it, or Cleveland's skyline, out of a lineup and I both (a) pay attention to where tall buildings are being built; and (b) have been to Cleveland numerous times. The funny thing is, being in a city, you rarely see its skyline. Driving in to the city from an exurb, you see the skyline; but in the city itself, you don't really see it much. Buildings at a human scale, that catch your eye when you're walking through the city, or that dominate the local environment of the city are the ones that you associate with the city.

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Nick
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Nick » January 5th, 2015, 12:55 am

Image
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talindsay
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby talindsay » January 5th, 2015, 6:32 am

Wow, I didn't consider the Mall...

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Nick
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Nick » January 5th, 2015, 7:37 am

Minneannapolis, Michigan: We've got that mall your niece wants to go to.
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lordmoke
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby lordmoke » January 5th, 2015, 10:29 am

Hey, it's more valuable than the Gateway Arch.

bapster2006
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby bapster2006 » January 5th, 2015, 10:31 am

A survey for the use of the plaza:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/WFJPLDS

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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Wedgeguy » January 5th, 2015, 10:56 am

Iconic is a really high bat for anything to meet including a building. In my opinion for something to be iconic it has to be something that is burned into people brain that they will never forget. There aren't that many iconic buildings in the world. The Freedom Tower is iconic, the Statue of Liberty is iconic, Burj Khalifa is iconic, the Shanghai Tower is iconic, the Eiffel Tower is iconic, Big Ben is iconic. There are a few more but not many. There was never going to be an iconic building on this block. Hell I would argue that the Twin Cities don't have an iconic building, that's not a shot at DT MPLS or StP that's simply a result of having such a high bar to clear.

I think the city set the bar too high and instead of using iconic they should have used signature. The IDS is a signature building as is Wells Fargo and Capella. I would argue the Guthrie is also signature building. The Duval proposal is a signature, yes partly because of it's height. The Mortenson proposal isn't nor is the Doran. The UP proposal solid but I don't know if it's a signature building. That's why I think the Duval proposal is the one the city should choose.
I'll have to agree with you on your definitions of iconic and signature. Iconic building are known around the country and world. Signature building are buildings that stand out from the crowd of blah rectangles boxes. I'd add the Accenture Tower to that list. Signature towers are generally not designed in house, but by well respected national firms that have a pedigree of accomplishments. Duval has Will/Perkins which has designed several top notch buildings in Chicago and around the country.

I agree with the wording, they should have said signature instead of Iconic. But if this is what you get for iconic proposals, can you imagine the lower standard that we would have seen with signature, 3 MultiFoods Towers proposals with city center podiums!

7sisters
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby 7sisters » January 5th, 2015, 11:26 am

The first thing that comes to my mind with the word signature for a building in downtown is height. The Foshay was Minneapolis's signature building until the IDS was built. In Chicago it's been the sears tower for decades and New York's signature is clearly the freedom tower. My opinion is if signature was the word to express this new building, than a 20 story minimum wouldn't cut it. After all this is downtown and downtowns are famous for skyscrapers. I find it both interesting and encouraging that the Duval proposal is both iconic for the most part and could also be considered a new signature tower in Mpls.

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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby MNdible » January 5th, 2015, 11:35 am

For what it's worth, I'd wager that most casual observers can't actually distinguish between the Chrysler and the Empire State, and some amalgam of the two is NYC's signature building.

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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby EOst » January 5th, 2015, 11:38 am

For what it's worth, I'd wager that most casual observers can't actually distinguish between the Chrysler and the Empire State, and some amalgam of the two is NYC's signature building.
Without a doubt. Freedom Tower doesn't come close to these two in global (or even national) cachet.

That said, I've known plenty of people to ask which was which, and heard plenty point to the wrong one, so.

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Nathan
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Nathan » January 5th, 2015, 11:48 am

The first thing that comes to my mind with the word signature for a building in downtown is height. The Foshay was Minneapolis's signature building until the IDS was built. In Chicago it's been the sears tower for decades and New York's signature is clearly the freedom tower. My opinion is if signature was the word to express this new building, than a 20 story minimum wouldn't cut it. After all this is downtown and downtowns are famous for skyscrapers. I find it both interesting and encouraging that the Duval proposal is both iconic for the most part and could also be considered a new signature tower in Mpls.
To me this seems a little like the idea of signature buildings of someone who has only seen skyline photos of lots of cities. It's not uncommon at all for other buildings to be way more iconic or signature when exploring a city.

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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby mattaudio » January 5th, 2015, 12:09 pm

Agreed. I think a good example in Minneapolis is US Bank Plaza (Pillsbury Center). It's a rather bland pair of towers, not a huge step up from 33 South Sixth in terms of tower design. And, with the exception of the two corner plazas, one facing city hall and the other facing Northstar, it's not remarkable from a sidewalk presence. But that bright atrium is marvelous, especially on a sunny but cold Minneapolis day. And it provides public seating and tables, making it an excellent meeting point. It's not signature architecture, but it is second only to the Crystal Court in providing a bright indoor space as a destination node in the skyway network, which seems particularly Minneapolitan.

Didier
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Didier » January 5th, 2015, 1:18 pm

Honestly, the most identifiable building in Minneapolis was probably the Metrodome. The Guthrie is unique, but it's not really well known.

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MN Fats
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby MN Fats » January 5th, 2015, 1:20 pm

Honestly, the most identifiable building in Minneapolis was probably the Metrodome. The Guthrie is unique, but it's not really well known.
You're right. And the new Vikings stadium will inevitably take its place, especially after the Final Four and Super Bowl.

talindsay
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby talindsay » January 5th, 2015, 1:29 pm

For what it's worth, I'd wager that most casual observers can't actually distinguish between the Chrysler and the Empire State, and some amalgam of the two is NYC's signature building.
Without a doubt. Freedom Tower doesn't come close to these two in global (or even national) cachet.

That said, I've known plenty of people to ask which was which, and heard plenty point to the wrong one, so.
Yes, I considered mentioning the Chrysler building in my initial post but decided it would muddy the waters. It'll be a long time, if ever, that the "Freedom Tower" eclipses those two as NYC's most iconic building.

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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Didier » January 5th, 2015, 1:36 pm

I think you're under-estimating the Freedom Tower. It's by far the dominant structure in one of the most shown skylines in TVs and movies.

Image

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Nathan
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Nathan » January 5th, 2015, 1:41 pm

The freedom tower is tall, yes, but it's clunky and not a very well realized tower in my mind. It has some decent features, but compared to it's kin, like the shard, it doesn't have concrete fluid defining features. The deco towers had the beautiful set backs and were both quintessential perfectly executed versions of style during the time period. The freedom tower has some subtle beauty, but isn't nearly as recognizable as other supertalls.

Didier
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Didier » January 5th, 2015, 1:44 pm

Architecture aside, though, the visibility of the Freedom Tower makes it one of the most identifiable structures in New York, which means it's iconic, no?

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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby kirby96 » January 5th, 2015, 1:51 pm

Architecture aside, though, the visibility of the Freedom Tower makes it one of the most identifiable structures in New York, which means it's iconic, no?
Certainly true. Imagine the picture above without the freedom tower. My guess is over 90% of the U.S. population would have no idea what city it is. With the Freedom Tower? Dumb Americans might still guess wrong a lot, but it's certainly 'iconic' in the sense that far more people would answer correctly.

talindsay
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby talindsay » January 5th, 2015, 2:00 pm

Architecture aside, though, the visibility of the Freedom Tower makes it one of the most identifiable structures in New York, which means it's iconic, no?
Eventually, maybe. Not yet. Just simply standing there like a middle finger toward the ocean doesn't in itself make the building anything people recognize. It may eventually become an icon, but right now anybody who wants to remember New York will go with the Statue of Liberty, Empire State or Chrysler buildings, Yankee Stadium, Central Park, the Brooklyn Bridge or any number of other more iconic structures or places before that one.


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