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Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 9th, 2019, 3:05 pm
by amiller92
Multimodal wrote:
January 9th, 2019, 2:09 pm
Was the Foshay tower what instigated the no-sign policy? Where did this all start?
Don't know, but a brief bit of the history here: https://ghostsignsmpls.blogspot.com/201 ... alled.html

Wilbur Foshay was perhaps a lesson in not wanting branding that was doing to stick around for awhile.

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 9th, 2019, 3:06 pm
by amiller92
David Greene wrote:
January 9th, 2019, 2:18 pm
I don't really care about the sign much one way or the other, but I do very much care about developers pressuring the city to special-case its rules because developers feels they can do so. Rule 1 of negotiation is to always be willing to walk away. The city should very much be willing to walk away from this and should make that clear. The design is a "meh" for me and while I'm not going to be upset if it's built, we shouldn't think of it as essential to build.
One could view the sign as actually giving the city leverage to negotiate as it's a thing it can give but doesn't have to. What does it want in exchange?

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 9th, 2019, 4:42 pm
by HiawathaGuy
amiller92 wrote:
January 9th, 2019, 3:06 pm
What does it want in exchange?
An iconic tower? :lol:
I'll be here all week folks!

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 9th, 2019, 6:43 pm
by Squidward
The latest on this tower borders on absurdity. After years of delays.. all United will do is come to the city with a laughable request with hints of childish drama: "if you don't give us the sign, we won't build it!"

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 9th, 2019, 7:01 pm
by exiled_antipodean
Much as we all dream policies change in a process of elections and rational proposals and reviews, they probably more often change in processes like this.

Just as RBC really shouldn't care too much about the sign (who picks their wealth mgmt company based on a sign seen from afar?), losing this proposal means starting over on replacing a parking lot with a building. The city absolutely has something to lose here too.

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 9th, 2019, 7:29 pm
by TroyGBiv
RBC has move - that ship has sailed... as an MBA with 20 years agency experience, RBC’s comment about the name on the top of the building being an important component of their global marketing land is a joke... it is not tent post strategy.... it is at best a “nice to have” but not a major focus for marketing teams... the city really needs to call their bluff and rule in a consistent way and not ruin our skyline with signage on the tops of the buildings.

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 9th, 2019, 8:51 pm
by Multimodal
amiller92 wrote:Don't know, but a brief bit of the history here: https://ghostsignsmpls.blogspot.com/201 ... alled.html

Wilbur Foshay was perhaps a lesson in not wanting branding that was doing to stick around for awhile.
Thanks for the history lesson. Ol’ Wilbur was a piece of work!

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 9th, 2019, 9:05 pm
by Didier
What leverage does RBC actually have here in terms of the sign?

The company has already put god knows how much time and money into the planning for this building. If it pulled the nuclear option and walked away entirely, RBC not only loses that investment but also the opportunity to occupy a brand new office tower downtown in the foreseeable future. Because any other downtown option — existing or new — also wouldn't have the sign, in that case. The only real negative for the city would be having this lot remain vacant for a while longer.

Of course, RBC could actually hurt the city if it moved out of Minneapolis altogether, to a suburban location that allows a sign. But that seems like a pretty dramatic and unlikely move just to get a sign.

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 9th, 2019, 9:54 pm
by Silophant
Yeah, I'm not a business guy, but I really can't buy that a sign is that important, especially for a business that isn't really customer facing in the same way Wells Fargo or Target is.

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 9th, 2019, 11:23 pm
by twincitizen
Bumping the appeal docs since it got pretty far upthread: https://lims.minneapolismn.gov/File/2019-00051

Meeting is Thursday, 10:00am. Anyone emailed their CM yet to oppose the sign? (especially if they're on the Z&P Committee)

Anyone got odds on approval of the sign?

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 10th, 2019, 8:30 am
by 5th Ave Guy
This is clearly a bluff... one that the city needs to call. There's no way RBC gets this far along in the process with the knowledge that this was a low probability approval. At this point, what does it hurt them to talk tough to try to get it?

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 10th, 2019, 8:46 am
by NE_love
twincitizen wrote:
January 9th, 2019, 11:23 pm
Anyone got odds on approval of the sign?
FWIW I emailed mine (Reich).

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 10th, 2019, 9:30 am
by twincitizen
5th Ave Guy wrote:
January 10th, 2019, 8:30 am
This is clearly a bluff... one that the city needs to call. There's no way RBC gets this far along in the process with the knowledge that this was a low probability approval. At this point, what does it hurt them to talk tough to try to get it?
100% agree. Everyone involved knows the rules and long-held precedent on building signage downtown. But I still don't blame them for trying. The cost of filing for the appeal is nothing to them. It might even have been literally nothing since they were already appealing other conditions.

Streaming live at 10:00am: http://www.minneapolismn.gov/tv/citycounciltv

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 10th, 2019, 10:04 am
by Bakken2016
twincitizen wrote:
January 10th, 2019, 9:30 am
5th Ave Guy wrote:
January 10th, 2019, 8:30 am
This is clearly a bluff... one that the city needs to call. There's no way RBC gets this far along in the process with the knowledge that this was a low probability approval. At this point, what does it hurt them to talk tough to try to get it?
100% agree. Everyone involved knows the rules and long-held precedent on building signage downtown. But I still don't blame them for trying. The cost of filing for the appeal is nothing to them. It might even have been literally nothing since they were already appealing other conditions.

Streaming live at 10:00am: http://www.minneapolismn.gov/tv/citycounciltv
Really wish the city has closed caption

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 10th, 2019, 10:24 am
by twincitizen
As much as I worry about the dangerous precedent setting aspect of the sign, I have to admit the actual sign being proposed would be fine. It's on the 3rd St elevation only, and is rather modest in relative size. I still don't like it and think they should deny it, but the sky won't fall if it gets approved. You won't be able to see it from most viewpoints (especially across the river), but it will be visible from points south/west on Hennepin, where not blocked by other buildings, as well as Glenwood/394/etc. It will definitely be visible from Target Field, which might be the main thing they're going for.

Goodman is all-in for approving the porte-chochere. She says it would be better than people stopping curbside on Hennepin, which is what will happen without the porte-cochere. In general, I side with the Planning Commission's approval conditions, which allowed the porte-cochere, but not the ramp down to underground parking at Hennepin & Washington.

CM Fletcher is speaking now. He's heard loud support for the project in general from Ward 3 residents. The porte cochere is definitely happening. I'm afraid the sign is happening as well. Goodman has moved approval of all 3 appeal requests.

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 10th, 2019, 11:09 am
by nordeast homer
twincitizen - Thanks for that link! That was actually fun to watch.

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 10th, 2019, 11:11 am
by nordeast homer
Now let's hope they take heed of Goodman's proposal of starting the reconstruction of Hennepin on this end so that they can kill two birds with one stone and get both these projects done at the same time.

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 10th, 2019, 11:17 am
by Silophant
I just can't get too mad at UP about the car ramp instead of retail at the Hennepin/Washington corner. Retail became impossible when the city decided to require the corner to be reserved for the pretend streetcar, and as far as the ramp goes, I'm very much in favor of valet parked cars having one conflict point with peds/bikes as they turn off of Hennepin, instead of, what, 13 as they turn back onto Hennepin and then speed through half of downtown to get back to the 3rd St entrance.

The sign itself isn't awful, but I'm extremely unhappy with the city for giving into UPs blackmail.

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 10th, 2019, 11:41 am
by twincitizen
nordeast homer wrote:
January 10th, 2019, 11:11 am
Now let's hope they take heed of Goodman's proposal of starting the reconstruction of Hennepin on this end so that they can kill two birds with one stone and get both these projects done at the same time.
Isn't Hennepin scheduled for 2020-2021 construction anyways, with finishing touches (landscaping, etc.) in 2022? This building is going to take like 2+ years to build, and isn't likely to break ground anytime too soon, right? Bill K from United even stated during testimony that financing was not 100% locked up yet. I can't imagine this tower would be completed & hotel actually open before late 2021, so I was confused as to what Goodman's rabble rousing on that issue was all about. Seems like the two projects are already timed up pretty well, as long as the road project isn't pushed back a season. It sounded like PW might've been noncommittal when previously asked by Goodman so that may have been the reason for the public sass.

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 10th, 2019, 12:09 pm
by Silophant
If I'm remembering correctly, the reasoning behind last summer's kerfluffle, where UP out of nowhere came to the CoW with plans for an office-only tower, was because they absolutely must start construction in spring 2019 so they can be finished by the time RBC's lease starts in mid-2021, so they needed to be able to get going with or without the Four Seasons at that point.