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Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 10th, 2019, 1:59 pm
by lordmoke
The porte cochere is totally reasonable (I say this as someone who bikes on Hennepin with great frequency) but I'm really, really not thrilled about that sign getting approved, if for no other reason than the terrible precedent it sets. I like being able to appreciate our skyline without being assaulted by advertising. What's going to stop every future tower from pulling this same maneuver now?

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 10th, 2019, 4:46 pm
by twincitizen
I'm not nearly as worried about future towers as I am about current buildings wanting to add signs now. If we're gaining several new 500'+ office towers, I'm not going to be too upset if there are a couple signs dotting the skyline. I'm 1000x more concerned about seeing logos added to Wells Fargo Center, Capella Tower, 33 South 6th (City Center tower), 222 South 9th (fmr. Campbell Mithun Tower), Fifth Street Towers, Target Plaza's video screen, etc. Basically the top 15 on this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... inneapolis.

Sooner or later, one of them will ask. They won't have anywhere near the leverage that RBC did today, due to it being long-vacant city-owned property, etc., but they will still ask, eventually. Hopefully future City Councils won't cave, and the current sign ordinance remains in place, isn't challenged in court, etc.

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 10th, 2019, 4:52 pm
by 5th Ave Guy
If Target wants to, they have a pretty easy case to make. The vehicle (video board) is already there, and if the city didn't say no to RBC, they sure as hell won't say no to the most important corporation to downtown.

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 10th, 2019, 4:56 pm
by twincitizen
Despite what I said above, I actually think Target would have the weakest case of any of the above-listed buildings, due to the unique nature of the video board. RBC's sign is really quite small, and static. It's a massive leap to Target having huge animated logos floating around the skyline. I'd bet that the initial approvals of Target Plaza South included very strong & detailed language concerning what they can/cannot display on there.

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 10th, 2019, 5:08 pm
by mnmike
I probably wouldn't mind signage if they were limited to the size of the RBC one, actually.

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 10th, 2019, 5:10 pm
by mnmike
PS, random note...if nobody has noticed, this building is pretty similar to the relatively new RBC tower in Raleigh, NC. That one is decent, but a bit disjointed with the mix of uses and the tacked on spire. Hopefully ours will look better:)

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 11th, 2019, 4:11 pm
by Oreos&Milk
lordmoke wrote:
January 10th, 2019, 1:59 pm
The porte cochere is totally reasonable (I say this as someone who bikes on Hennepin with great frequency) but I'm really, really not thrilled about that sign getting approved, if for no other reason than the terrible precedent it sets. I like being able to appreciate our skyline without being assaulted by advertising. What's going to stop every future tower from pulling this same maneuver now?
As sombody who also bikes a lot downtown I think this is not going to be very biking friendly. Biking down Nicollet drivers notice the bikes which bike in the roadway. Once Hennepin is redone and has a bike lane mixed in with the sidewalk and bus stop area drivers are not going to be as watchful as they are when the bikes are actually on the roadway.

Right now it's only a minor issue, and given all the requirements of the block the developer still has done a good job at still making it work. I can tell after watching that city council meeting that all these focuses on types of construction jobs, types of hotel jobs, while the developer is just trying to keep the deal together. I still say get it approved.

However, 10-20 years from now once Hennepin Ave and Washington Ave start to become the backbone to a bike protected network, having this hotel's porte cochere right in the thick of things is going to be a much bigger annoyance in the future. I wish they could have place it on 3rd. or have used the "streetcar" ROW with an agreement that they would remove it upon the construction of the line (if it were to ever be built) There should have been more of a consideration to move the sidewalk & bike lane further into the building space thereby allowing the cars to still have a drop off space without cars and pedestrians & bikes having to cross lanes twice. Except for the parking ramp access for valet which would be only used by trained drivers who would understand they need to watch out for bikes. Just my two cents.

Still overall I'd say a solid B, maybe a B- given their lack of detail for long term impacts. Or maybe C+, but that's a bit dramatic, but then again so is the sign on top.. :x ...Ok. solid B-.

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 14th, 2019, 1:57 pm
by mattaudio
I feel like there's gotta be some sort of design somewhere between "Hewing Hotel Load in the Bike Lane" and "Four Seasons Porte Cochere." Why not some sort of pull-out area and curbside loading zone, and then curve the bike lane in towards the development via an easement?

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 14th, 2019, 8:52 pm
by J2K
Because the world revolves around bikers. Get over yourselves.

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 14th, 2019, 10:02 pm
by Anondson
That’s like saying we put in curb cuts because the world revolves around people in wheel chairs.

Having the bike route go around the hotel drop off is better for people driving and for people on bikes because there is less conflict.

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 14th, 2019, 10:12 pm
by Multimodal
When what little train transit we do have includes a direct line from the airport to downtown a couple of blocks away, and leading cities worldwide are slowly choking cars out of their densest downtown areas, a porte cochère sounds as anachronistic as a typewriter or 8-track stereo.

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 14th, 2019, 11:07 pm
by NickP
Multimodal wrote:
January 14th, 2019, 10:12 pm
When what little train transit we do have includes a direct line from the airport to downtown a couple of blocks away, and leading cities worldwide are slowly choking cars out of their densest downtown areas, a porte cochère sounds as anachronistic as a typewriter or 8-track stereo.
I don’t intend to belittle, but my hipster-sense went off at the mention of a typewriter and of an 8-track. My initial response to your post was “but those sound cool!!” Haha #selfdeprication

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 14th, 2019, 11:21 pm
by BoredAgain
Multimodal wrote:
January 14th, 2019, 10:12 pm
When what little train transit we do have includes a direct line from the airport to downtown a couple of blocks away, and leading cities worldwide are slowly choking cars out of their densest downtown areas, a porte cochère sounds as anachronistic as a typewriter or 8-track stereo.
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but at no point in the near future will the average person staying at this potential four seasons hotel (or any other four seasons hotel that I know of) be arriving by train, bus, or bike. This is the private car or taxi/uber crowd. I understand and agree that we want to move away from car crossing conflicts, but having cars and passengers unloading directly into an above-the-curb bike lane doesn't really sound better to me (aside from the above-the-curb part).

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 14th, 2019, 11:47 pm
by Multimodal
If we design for cars, we get cars.

If we want a different world, we have to design new things differently.

It’s that simple.

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 14th, 2019, 11:49 pm
by Multimodal
NickP wrote:I don’t intend to belittle, but my hipster-sense went off at the mention of a typewriter and of an 8-track. My initial response to your post was “but those sound cool!!” Haha #selfdeprication
Ha ha! Your hipster is my old junk.

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 15th, 2019, 8:33 am
by mattaudio
How will porte cocheres be re-purposed when we ban cars?

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 15th, 2019, 9:29 am
by BBMplsMN
mattaudio wrote:
January 15th, 2019, 8:33 am
How will porte cocheres be re-purposed when we ban cars?
They will be lovely awnings to keep people out of the rain and snow no matter the mode of transportation.

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 15th, 2019, 10:37 am
by mnmike
It's true...can you imagine? They work for any mode of transport. Horse and buggy? It's got you covered! See what I did there?

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 15th, 2019, 10:43 am
by Multimodal
Can’t wait ‘til the streetcar pulls into the porte cochère

Re: Gateway Tower (RBC/Four Seasons) - 37 stories - 503'

Posted: January 15th, 2019, 12:21 pm
by xandrex
mattaudio wrote:
January 15th, 2019, 8:33 am
How will porte cocheres be re-purposed when we ban cars?
Covered bike parking. :mrgreen:
mattaudio wrote:I feel like there's gotta be some sort of design somewhere between "Hewing Hotel Load in the Bike Lane" and "Four Seasons Porte Cochere." Why not some sort of pull-out area and curbside loading zone, and then curve the bike lane in towards the development via an easement?
You can bet any valet stand and luggage unloading would block the bike lane in this scenario. I feel like it's almost worse than a porte cochere.