Stadium Parking Ramp Development Site

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
mattaudio
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Stadium Parking Ramp Development Site

Postby mattaudio » February 5th, 2014, 6:10 pm

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/b ... kings.html
• Minneapolis-based Ryan pitched a $104 million, 28-story apartment tower with 282 units and street-level retail or restaurant space.
• Golden Valley-based Mortenson pitched a $63 million, 300-room hotel project dual-branded as AC by Marriot and SpringHill Suites by Marriott. Mortenson is working with at least one hotel development partner.

Chauncey87
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby Chauncey87 » February 5th, 2014, 6:28 pm

I have to wonder what we would have seen had there been more then a month to put something together? I am pleased that it appears at least one of the ideas is taller then the WF towers.

mattaudio
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby mattaudio » February 5th, 2014, 6:33 pm

First take:
A 300 room hotel would not be as good as the Ryan pitch. 40% more rooms than the Hampton Inn. Which is 9 stories on roughly 25% of the land. So the Mortenson plan would likely be 3 to 6 stories of hotel rooms on top of the ramp. Also, a hotel requires more street-level lobby presence than an apartment tower, and it would be better for the neighborhood to have retail/restaurant frontage there.

As people know, I'm not one to worry too much about tower height. But 28-stories of residential - people in the neighborhood day in and day out - would really be a game changer. It would cap the park nicely and make the ugly stadium a little less of a height behemoth in Downtown East. It would also provide more people who would demand a higher-quality park programmed to serve the neighborhood, day in and day out. Not to mention it represents roughly a 70% higher investment in the parcel than the Mortenson hotel.

Granted, we know very little about these two plans. We also do not know the offer price for the air rights for each proposal. Yet from an economic development and neighborhood amenity perspective, the Ryan proposal seems to be the clear winner at first glance.

twincitizen
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby twincitizen » February 5th, 2014, 6:43 pm

Ryan's proposal certainly explains why they were delaying or not building the remainder of the units on the WF blocks, facing 3rd Street.

If this proposal means those units along the 3rd St side of the WF buildings don't get built, I'd almost lean towards the hotel as my preference. If the units along 3rd St are/aren't getting built either way, then obviously I'd take this in a heartbeat.

The real question for Ryan is how much demand is there to live in DTE right now, especially right next to the stadium. I'm really curious what their timeline for this project would be, relative to the three residential buildings lining the new park.

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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby Silophant » February 5th, 2014, 6:46 pm

I wouldn't particularly want a supertall here, but I agree that it would be nice for a parcel like this to have something that actually sticks out above the stadium and WF towers, which a 300 room hotel with a full block footprint would not. Hopefully it's designed well, and, as mattaudio said, 4-500 more residents in this still-empty area is a big deal, and would help ensure that our new park is well-used. I wonder if 28 stories of residential includes the 6-story ramp, or if it's on top of it for 34 stories total?

While I think it's important and more or less inevitable that a large hotel pops up with a direct skyway connection to the stadium, I hope this isn't the one, however. There's still plenty of surface lots within a block or two.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby FISHMANPET » February 5th, 2014, 6:59 pm

I've stayed at a Springhill suites before, usually they're paired with a Marriot extended stay brand. Interesting that they've gone with a brand that would compete with aloft here instead.

John
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby John » February 5th, 2014, 7:04 pm

Lackluster proposals both of them. Same old, same old in the city of 10,000 overpriced apartments and interstate hotel chains. It's not so much the developers, but the city that needs to facilitate a better response for a more ambitious project for this ramp. It's hard to figure out, but I think something is scaring away the developers on a national level.
Last edited by John on February 5th, 2014, 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mnmike
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby mnmike » February 5th, 2014, 7:12 pm

John wrote:Lackluster proposals both of them. Same old, same old in the city of 10,000 overpriced apartments and interstate hotel chains. It's not so much the developers, but the city that needs to facilitate a better response for a more ambitious project for this ramp. It's hard to figure out, but I think something is scaring away the developers on a national level.
What? The city needs to facilitate a better response? lol. Right.

This is about what I expected for this parcel all along...Either will be fine if they are designed well. Will be glad to have something getting built at the same time as the ramp.
Last edited by mnmike on February 5th, 2014, 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby RailBaronYarr » February 5th, 2014, 7:19 pm

Without knowing much about either, I'd lean toward the hotel for the reasons twincitizen cites, assuming a hotel would mean a strong chance of the north side liner apartments in the Ryan development. The longer the backside of the WF towers stays vacant the worse for connecting DTE to the Mill District and river, IMO. I can't find how many units were in the 2x north apartment liners, but I would imagine it would be close to the proposed 28 story, 282 unit apartment, all within a quick walk to the park. Added benefit of a hotel on the ramp: how many people coming to town for games could ride the LRT in and only have to walk about 100' to the hotel?

Lastly, I know this is semi-quasi-sorta related, but is there any way for the parking ramp to have better street frontage along Park, Chicago, and 3rd? Would be a shame for this block to turn its back toward Washington...

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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby Silophant » February 5th, 2014, 7:55 pm

RailBaronYarr wrote:Without knowing much about either, I'd lean toward the hotel for the reasons twincitizen cites, assuming a hotel would mean a strong chance of the north side liner apartments in the Ryan development. The longer the backside of the WF towers stays vacant the worse for connecting DTE to the Mill District and river, IMO. I can't find how many units were in the 2x north apartment liners, but I would imagine it would be close to the proposed 28 story, 282 unit apartment, all within a quick walk to the park. Added benefit of a hotel on the ramp: how many people coming to town for games could ride the LRT in and only have to walk about 100' to the hotel?
I think we'll wind up with a hotel connected to this ramp via skyway even if the ramp doesn't become one. Either this proposal will resurface, or something will go in on the parking lot across Chicago from this ramp, or any of the other surface lots.

Ryan is building this ramp regardless of which proposal is chosen, right? I'd assume there'd be cost efficiencies if Ryan is also building the building on top.
Last edited by Silophant on February 5th, 2014, 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Andrew_F
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby Andrew_F » February 5th, 2014, 7:55 pm

It's tough to make a call without knowing some more details on the cancelled Ryan buildings fronting 3rd.

I think it's probably a good bet that if Ryan can't build over the ramp, we'll see those units on 3rd sooner rather than later. It's probably also a good bet that a midsize hotel will pop up within a few blocks if the Mortenson proposal isn't built.

Initially my thought was that the apartment proposal is probably the better option as there is a serious danger of Ryan's units on 3rd being some pretty lame boxes, whereas the tower stands a better chance of being truly high quality. At the same time though, 3rd could really be in a bad spot without Ryan's units there. There's some beautiful buildings on the north side of the street that could help elevate it out of car sewer territory. However, if we give it two blocks of surface parking lots (presumably fronting several stories of blank wall on the back sides of the WF buildings) and the back of a parking ramp, we could really be cementing its place as a neighborhood divider.

If only Ryan would build both the units on 3rd and the parking ramp tower. :P

uptowncarag

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby uptowncarag » February 5th, 2014, 8:00 pm

What a surprise. 28 stories is not going to be tall enough for some people. I knew it. I think it is perfect for this location. Downtown is finally starting to change right before our eyes.

Tcmetro
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby Tcmetro » February 5th, 2014, 8:13 pm

This + WF development + Stadium will do a lot for Downtown East. Maybe with some renovations of HCMC to make it less of a fortress, we could see the Mill District and Elliot Park flow into each other.

Tyler
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby Tyler » February 5th, 2014, 10:26 pm

John wrote:Lackluster proposals both of them. Same old, same old in the city of 10,000 overpriced apartments and interstate hotel chains. It's not so much the developers, but the city that needs to facilitate a better response for a more ambitious project for this ramp. It's hard to figure out, but I think something is scaring away the developers on a national level.
This is insane. In a literal sense. This area is a *wasteland.*

No one was building the 50 story lord of the rings replica tower you guys wanted. There aren't that many orcs (or elves?) in minneapolis anyways.
Towns!

tab
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby tab » February 5th, 2014, 10:42 pm

I don't see the Ryan tower apartments proposal and the apartments fronting 3rd as an either/or proposition. Presumably, there's a significant difference in cost-to-build between 6-level wood-frame along 3rd and a 28-story tower, and thus Ryan can target different segments of the rental market with each project.
My sense is that the apartments along 3rd are more similar to the other low-rise apartments in their proposal, and they are probably concerned about saturating a specific market segment by building them all simultaneously. Similar to Mill & Main phase 1 and 2, Ryan is probably looking to make adjustments to later phases based on lessons learned in marketing their first Downtown East projects, and also avoid bringing too many units to market in the same year.

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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby John » February 5th, 2014, 10:53 pm

Tyler wrote:
John wrote:Lackluster proposals both of them. Same old, same old in the city of 10,000 overpriced apartments and interstate hotel chains. It's not so much the developers, but the city that needs to facilitate a better response for a more ambitious project for this ramp. It's hard to figure out, but I think something is scaring away the developers on a national level.
This is insane. In a literal sense. This area is a *wasteland.*

No one was building the 50 story lord of the rings replica tower you guys wanted. There aren't that many orcs (or elves?) in minneapolis anyways.


Seven developers had expressed interest in the site, but only two (local) developers went so far as to propose insipid projects that are being replicated elsewhere. And one proposed a restaurant on the street level. WOW! That will go a long way in improving the pedestrian experience around this huge parking ramp ( which BTW, has nothing to do with it being 50 stories). Sorry not to be overwhelmed with excitement. ;)

minnyapple
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby minnyapple » February 5th, 2014, 10:55 pm

Is it a for sure thing that Ryan won't build the 400 apartments units if they build this tower? The startribune article has it listed still as part of the planned development. http://www.startribune.com/local/minnea ... 60271.html Granted it would be a lot of units but i could see them still going forward with them.

Tyler
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby Tyler » February 5th, 2014, 10:58 pm

Ehh? Have you seen the proposals? What makes them so insipid? I'm pretty sure we almost got stuck with a block sized parking ramp with nothing above it.
Towns!

uptowncarag

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby uptowncarag » February 5th, 2014, 11:02 pm

John wrote:
Tyler wrote:
John wrote:Lackluster proposals both of them. Same old, same old in the city of 10,000 overpriced apartments and interstate hotel chains. It's not so much the developers, but the city that needs to facilitate a better response for a more ambitious project for this ramp. It's hard to figure out, but I think something is scaring away the developers on a national level.
This is insane. In a literal sense. This area is a *wasteland.*

No one was building the 50 story lord of the rings replica tower you guys wanted. There aren't that many orcs (or elves?) in minneapolis anyways.


Seven developers had expressed interest in the site, but only two (local) developers went so far as to propose insipid projects that are being replicated elsewhere. And one proposed a restaurant on the street level. WOW! That will go a long way in improving the pedestrian experience around this huge parking ramp ( which BTW, has nothing to do with it being 50 stories). Sorry not to be overwhelmed with excitement. ;)
I am overwhelmed with your response. I am so excited that I can't stand it, I literally can't stand it. I am getting goose bumps by reading what you wrote.

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Nathan
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby Nathan » February 5th, 2014, 11:29 pm

I think the Ryan proposal and Ryan cos in general have a better interest in this whole neighborhood being successful and would put out a better addition here, even if it means phasing the constitution of the rest of the apartments.


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