Stadium Parking Ramp Development Site

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
m b p
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 198
Joined: September 3rd, 2012, 5:46 pm

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby m b p » September 22nd, 2014, 11:43 am

Found another one...
Image

I created the towers, and the 6 floor apartment building in the foreground.

Image

those jerks.

Minneboy
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 667
Joined: January 15th, 2013, 1:18 pm

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby Minneboy » September 22nd, 2014, 2:10 pm

Despite your hard work, time and effort, you could take pride in the fact that they like it enough to use it. If that helps at all.

ECtransplant
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 745
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 9:56 am

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby ECtransplant » September 22nd, 2014, 4:36 pm

I'm with David, sue for copyright infringement. And contact City Pages.

User avatar
Nathan
IDS Center
Posts: 4009
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 10:42 am

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby Nathan » September 22nd, 2014, 8:42 pm

I'd read the fine print in Google warehouse or whatever it is... they might strip you of your rights when you publicize it...

David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4761
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby David Greene » September 22nd, 2014, 8:43 pm

bubzki2 wrote:
David Greene wrote:
m b p wrote:Maybe I'm just thinking highly of myself... but I think the vikings used my model.
Sue for copyright infringement.

Seriously.
You can try the lawsuit thing, but I'm not sure what you're hoping to get out of it. An injunction? Moot. Damages? Can you show unjust enrichment or economic damage to you?
They're making money off his work. At the very least they're not paying the business cost to develop the models. That's damages by unjust enrichment. They should have purchased the renderings or made new ones.

Lawsuits are expensive, yes, but perhaps a lawyer can reach a settlement without going to trial. There've got to be some hungry new attorneys out there. As people have said, the Wilf's ain't exactly popular right now. The bad PR alone might push them to settle quietly.

It's exactly what Wilf would do if the situations were reversed.

grant1simons2
IDS Center
Posts: 4300
Joined: February 8th, 2014, 11:33 pm
Location: Marcy-Holmes

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby grant1simons2 » September 22nd, 2014, 8:45 pm

That's what I was going to say, but M B P did claim that he pulled it down from public viewing.. I feel like whatever you post in there can be used since it's technically a design program. And what do you mean they're making money off of his work? The person who made the rendering is making money but aren't the Wilfs' losing money because they had to pay the person to create a render?

David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4761
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby David Greene » September 22nd, 2014, 8:47 pm

grant1simons2 wrote:That's what I was going to say, but M B P did claim that he pulled it down from public viewing.. I feel like whatever you post in there can be used since it's technically a design program. And what do you mean they're making money off of his work? The person who made the rendering is making money but aren't the Wilfs' losing money because they had to pay the person to create a render?
I'm not a lawyer and yes, the target might be the company that developed the rendering. But ultimately they were contracted by the Vikings. A lawyer would have to figure it out.

Depending on the target, they're making money by being paid for the rendering work or they're making money by not paying (as much) for the rendering.

bubzki2
US Bank Plaza
Posts: 751
Joined: September 19th, 2012, 5:38 pm
Location: Snelling-Hamline

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby bubzki2 » September 23rd, 2014, 7:01 am

I suspect the critical question will come down to whether the copyrighted material has terms of use attached that allowed for some use of the files. I think we can leave it in the lawyers' hands at this point if the affected party so desires. Those saying "sue him" without knowing all the facts may want to cool their jets. Litigation is messy stuff and really is a last resort in 99% of cases.

holmstar
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 161
Joined: October 29th, 2013, 2:59 pm

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby holmstar » September 23rd, 2014, 7:36 am

Major Deegan;117590222 wrote: By uploading his models to the 3D Warehouse, m_b_p agreed to the site's EULA, which permits:
Distributing Models, Creations, and Combined Works to third parties for your business purposes (including for commercial purposes);
https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/tos.html

From Sketchup's FAQ:
I work for a construction company in the computer graphics & visualization department. Can I use models from 3D Warehouse to populate construction scenes?

Answer: Yes. You can use models from 3D Warehouse to populate construction scenes.

Archiapolis
Foshay Tower
Posts: 818
Joined: November 2nd, 2012, 8:59 am

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby Archiapolis » September 23rd, 2014, 7:47 am

bubzki2 wrote:I suspect the critical question will come down to whether the copyrighted material has terms of use attached that allowed for some use of the files. I think we can leave it in the lawyers' hands at this point if the affected party so desires. Those saying "sue him" without knowing all the facts may want to cool their jets. Litigation is messy stuff and really is a last resort in 99% of cases.
This is the germane point: what were the terms of the models submitted to the "warehouse?"

I can say that MAYBE 1% of architects are technologically adept enough to circumvent the restricted downloading of files somehow.

I would love for people to get paid for their models but if they are up on the warehouse for free, it is assumed on the other end that they are available for download and use.

I'm not a big Sketchup guy but if people use their free time to create models and post them without restriction to the warehouse then...thank you?

Architecture firms are no different than any other business: if something is available for free then who wouldn't grab it?

User avatar
Anondson
IDS Center
Posts: 4141
Joined: July 21st, 2013, 8:57 pm
Location: Where West Minneapolis Once Was

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby Anondson » September 23rd, 2014, 8:51 am

Archiapolis wrote:... if they are up on the warehouse for free, it is assumed on the other end that they are available for download and use.
More broadly, 99.9% (slight exaggeration) of internet users assume if something is found on the internet it can be reused for free.

David Greene
IDS Center
Posts: 4761
Joined: December 4th, 2012, 11:41 am

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby David Greene » September 23rd, 2014, 10:29 am

And both assumptions are very, very dangerous unless use terms explicitly allow it.

Free Software is usually free as in beer and is readily available on the 'net but it still has copyright protection. In fact the GNU General Public License relies on it and companies have been successfully sued for not following the licensing terms.

grant1simons2
IDS Center
Posts: 4300
Joined: February 8th, 2014, 11:33 pm
Location: Marcy-Holmes

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby grant1simons2 » September 23rd, 2014, 11:50 am

Terms explicitly allow it
I work for a construction company in the computer graphics & visualization department. Can I use models from 3D Warehouse to populate construction scenes?

Answer: Yes. You can use models from 3D Warehouse to populate construction scenes.

Archiapolis
Foshay Tower
Posts: 818
Joined: November 2nd, 2012, 8:59 am

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby Archiapolis » September 23rd, 2014, 12:02 pm

Anondson wrote:
Archiapolis wrote:... if they are up on the warehouse for free, it is assumed on the other end that they are available for download and use.
More broadly, 99.9% (slight exaggeration) of internet users assume if something is found on the internet it can be reused for free.
True. But in many cases of "internet stuff" there are measures in place to protect authors. For images, watermarks tend to be a strong deterrent for those looking for resources. For video you've got the original item in an embed link, etc. For text, you've got...google which exposes a lot of plagiarism (wife is a teacher).

For models it's an actual file with content that is either downloadable or it isn't. If it IS downloadable (through conventional means) then it is reasonable to assume that the author INTENDED it to be made available.

Example: we look for high-res images all of the time and there are tons on Flickr. However, users can choose to not make an image downloadable (through a creative commons license I believe) which means that you either have to accept that and move on or take a screenshot, accept the image quality downgrade and be a jerk.

This is getting WAY off-topic but I think authors should be compensated for their work; the question is, how do you do that in a way that is fair to the author, reasonable for the consumer and easy to achieve (transaction wise)?

m b p
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 198
Joined: September 3rd, 2012, 5:46 pm

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby m b p » September 23rd, 2014, 1:06 pm

I briefly chatted with a lawyer. He looked over 3d warehouse's terms of use.

Apparently anyone is allowed to use any of models in any of their work so long as they've made significant changes to the overall composition. I guess they added buildings to my 3... so they did make changes.

However, only a "reasonable amount" of copies are allowed to be made. Is putting my model in the STrib, Strib.com, TV news across the state, and TV news' websites reasonable?

The lawyer said he'd take on the case... though it could be tricky. I don't know if I'm going to do anything.

I make my models public so that other people, like me, laymen, can get a glimpse into details that aren't made clear through public announcements. Not so that a billion dollar company can save a few bucks by not paying someone for their work.

Let's just move on. ;)

contrast
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 124
Joined: July 17th, 2012, 8:23 pm

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby contrast » September 24th, 2014, 7:53 pm

[quote="m b p"]Found another one...
Image

Never noticed before how much this looks like the U of M Alumni Center from this angle...

Archiapolis
Foshay Tower
Posts: 818
Joined: November 2nd, 2012, 8:59 am

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby Archiapolis » September 25th, 2014, 8:57 am

m b p wrote:I briefly chatted with a lawyer. He looked over 3d warehouse's terms of use.

Apparently anyone is allowed to use any of models in any of their work so long as they've made significant changes to the overall composition. I guess they added buildings to my 3... so they did make changes.

However, only a "reasonable amount" of copies are allowed to be made. Is putting my model in the STrib, Strib.com, TV news across the state, and TV news' websites reasonable?

The lawyer said he'd take on the case... though it could be tricky. I don't know if I'm going to do anything.

I make my models public so that other people, like me, laymen, can get a glimpse into details that aren't made clear through public announcements. Not so that a billion dollar company can save a few bucks by not paying someone for their work.

Let's just move on. ;)
Like I said, I'm on the side of authors (like yourselves).

I think the ONLY solution to this would be if Google changed the way their system worked wherein you would build and submit a model with coordinates and it would go into Google Earth or a "future projects" layer of some kind that could be turned on and off in Google Earth. It is already possible in Sketchup an Revit to model your building and "place" it into Google Earth to visualize it. The graphics have some limitations, don't look nearly as good and you are at the mercy of the cameras in Google Earth (i.e. you have MUCH less control).

As long as there is a "warehouse" that allows the downloading of models with an EULA with ambiguous terms like "reasonable" use, I don't see any way that this changes.

An order for an architecture firm to create an image of this kind WITHOUT people like yourselves would be to go to EACH party and get their models individually for each building that is set to appear in the image or, model it themselves. The problem in scenario one is that each party is going to want a hefty chunk of money but not only that, it is their "creative content" in the sense that unless they spend a lot of time stripping things out, they could potentially be giving away company secrets. Sketchup models are just a bunch of dumb faces but in the case of a Revit model, there is TONS of data (time, content, corporate development) that goes into a model making that "stripping" process unwieldy, expensive and difficult. Also, it isn't just a question of money, in many cases, there is a time element to this where everyone wants things NOW. To create a model of all of these future projects "in house", just isn't feasible with the desired timeframes.
Now, multiply these issues across all of the various buildings set to appear in an image and I'm sure you can see the issue compounding quickly.

Rich
Rice Park
Posts: 413
Joined: June 30th, 2012, 7:12 pm

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby Rich » September 29th, 2014, 3:34 pm


HiawathaGuy
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1597
Joined: June 4th, 2012, 12:03 pm

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby HiawathaGuy » September 29th, 2014, 4:26 pm

Rich wrote:Mortenson's rejected proposal:

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/b ... posal.html
Yeah, glad the City went with Ryan for this location.
Image

I think this could be a cool addition elsewhere downtown though. (but with more glass)

John
Capella Tower
Posts: 2250
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 2:06 pm

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby John » September 29th, 2014, 6:08 pm

^^^ It's too bad Mortenson couldn't develop a hotel with Ryan and Magellan's residential project above. Probably way too complicated in many ways. We may see something similar to this proposal at Hennepin and 4th.


Return to “Minneapolis - Downtown”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests