Stadium Parking Ramp Development Site

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Archiapolis
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby Archiapolis » May 27th, 2015, 8:22 am

mister.shoes wrote:The Vikings are blocking it only by proxy via the MSFA. As we discussed a long ways upthread when the old building on that corner was being demolished without so much as a cursory historical review by the HPC, the stadium legislation written over in StP has a lot of language that supersedes any city policy that would otherwise influence the development on these blocks. While the Vikings/MSFA don't literally control this entire block and the development upon/usage of that parking ramp, they effectively do so via the legislation.

Ryan wanted to add another level to the ramp and allow hotel/apartment users to simply drive up the ramp to the top level, but the MSFA argued (successfully, somehow) that the potential traffic of those couple hundred users—who in all likelihood would do everything they possibly could to avoid the ramp on game days—would adversely affect the ingress/egress of the VIPs who get to park in the ramp for Vikings games. It's forehead-slapping insane, to be honest, but [apparently] legally watertight.
The Wilf's had this city over a barrel and now it's all manifesting itself...I'm sure we will see an expose on this whole thing on the front page of the Strib any day now...

trigonalmayhem

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby trigonalmayhem » May 27th, 2015, 10:37 am

The same strib that was a fervent cheerleader for the shit deal because they stood to make a bunch of money off of it by selling their building and land off? Yeah I wouldn't hold my breath ... unless they find away to avoid culpability or just don't care since their check is already cashed.

Archiapolis
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby Archiapolis » May 27th, 2015, 1:59 pm

Archiapolis wrote:
mister.shoes wrote:The Vikings are blocking it only by proxy via the MSFA. As we discussed a long ways upthread when the old building on that corner was being demolished without so much as a cursory historical review by the HPC, the stadium legislation written over in StP has a lot of language that supersedes any city policy that would otherwise influence the development on these blocks. While the Vikings/MSFA don't literally control this entire block and the development upon/usage of that parking ramp, they effectively do so via the legislation.

Ryan wanted to add another level to the ramp and allow hotel/apartment users to simply drive up the ramp to the top level, but the MSFA argued (successfully, somehow) that the potential traffic of those couple hundred users—who in all likelihood would do everything they possibly could to avoid the ramp on game days—would adversely affect the ingress/egress of the VIPs who get to park in the ramp for Vikings games. It's forehead-slapping insane, to be honest, but [apparently] legally watertight.
The Wilf's had this city over a barrel and now it's all manifesting itself...I'm sure we will see an expose on this whole thing on the front page of the Strib any day now...
<sarcasm font>

bubzki2
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby bubzki2 » August 26th, 2015, 11:40 am

Looking at this one's progress, am I to understand that the ship has sailed and that this is now a mere parking ramp? Can someone eyeball whether the construction is stout enough to take more building on top of the ramp when completed? This project is hard to follow, but based on the lack of activity, I'm guessing now this is just a massive parking ramp?

mnmike
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby mnmike » August 26th, 2015, 11:49 am

It is mostly the space in front of the ramp where any development would go...I don't believe there have been any updates on future plans.

bubzki2
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby bubzki2 » August 26th, 2015, 12:05 pm

I do see that there is a little spot of square footage that the ramp doesn't cover. Presumably, then, whatever happens won't be vertically-mixed. Thanks.

mattaudio
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby mattaudio » August 26th, 2015, 12:49 pm

Didn't they have an RFP on this with multiple respondents? Can't they offer it up to the next one?

MNdible
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby MNdible » August 26th, 2015, 1:01 pm

It's sort of lost in the mists of time now, but I believe that Ryan fronted the costs to bulk up the structure on the outermost bay of the ramp to accommodate the loads of a future structure that would be partially on top of the ramp.

Regarding moving to the next respondent on the RFP list, presumably they would be having much of the same difficulties working with the MSFA and the Vikings that Ryan is. At this point, if Ryan can't come up with something that works (and per their agreement with the city, they still have time and the intent to do so), you'd almost certainly need to issue an all new RFP.

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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby HiawathaGuy » August 26th, 2015, 1:10 pm

The plan was always to build the new building on that slip lot. The scurfuffle came about when Ryan wanted to add another level of parking and an amenities deck to the top of the MSFA ramp. But there was concern about ramp usage during games. It was all stupid, and resulted in Radison deciding to withdraw from that spot. I don't believe the City will go with Option B - nor do I think they could (even if they wanted to). Ryan and City entered into an agreement, and Ryan has until 2020 (perhaps beyond) to build on that slip lot, or have to pay the City for assumed loss tax revenue, or something like that. I'm sure the final agreement is back deep in the depths of this thread.

Regardless, the plan was NEVER to have this development occurring at the same time as all the other building happening in the area now. It was always planned to happen after, and open after the stadium opened next fall. I believe the original plan had a fall 2017 anticipated completion. But the pause button that Ryan got from the City, with the renegotiated plan, after the hotel portion pulled out, may certainly cause it to be a 2018 or later opening. Time will tell.

mattaudio
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby mattaudio » August 26th, 2015, 1:32 pm

Slip lot, meaning a partial liner building. And not any sort of tower above the ramp. A tower is out at this point?

mnmike
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby mnmike » August 26th, 2015, 1:37 pm

Just a point of clarification...Radisson didn't actually withdraw from the development, Ryan excluded them. I am not sure if the reasoning was that they thought the mixed use was too complicated, or what...but I believe this was before the whole parking issue. I work for Carlson and did confirm that they didn't leave the development by choice...I believe it was mentioned in some later articles as well. Luckily they were able to build on the lot across the street. My last day is this week, so I guess I can say stuff about Radisson. But no, I am not a spokesperson:) lol.

From an old Strib article:

"But since then, Ryan said the hotel portion of the project is “economically unfeasible,” and the firm has altered its proposal to include just apartments, as well as an undetermined use for a small strip of land on the block. Frey said a police substation may be located there."

http://www.startribune.com/plan-calls-f ... 273268911/

I think it was after that when the parking issue really came up, and then Ryan and Magellan split and the whole thing fell apart.

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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby MNdible » August 26th, 2015, 1:56 pm

mattaudio wrote:Slip lot, meaning a partial liner building. And not any sort of tower above the ramp. A tower is out at this point?
Per my previous comment, I believe that the bulked-up structure that Ryan built into the parking ramp would allow them to build a tower that is partially on the liner parcel and partially bears on top of the ramp.

EDIT: I think that this PDF still represents the governing contract agreement, and it does confirm the structural reinforcement.

Azel
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby Azel » August 27th, 2015, 11:53 am

Ryan must have had a deadline for when it needed to complete a development contract with the MSFA. Anybody know when that expires/expired? You'd assume the Vikings would make a hard push again.

VikingFaninMaryland
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby VikingFaninMaryland » August 27th, 2015, 12:25 pm

About a year ago I think there was some pretty contentious reporting over the fact that the proposal that caused Ryan to win the bidding for the air-rights completely fell through and the Vikings put in a challenge to re-open the bid with an actual counter-proposal. The Vikings actually put out a complete prepared proposal but did not prevail. While Ryan asked for more time to put something together, it seemed pretty clear that any ideas of getting both apartments and hotel, etc was going to be a reach. Ryan asked for and got more time to put together a lesser package - that they have yet to unveil [potentially pushing completion pasted the unstated and not official deadline of 2018 for the Superbowl].

I know its popular to go after the Wilf's for playing hardball (who'd of thunk that in the construction world), but I think they were right when saying that Ryan won the initial bid on a proposal that they simply could not (and cannot) convert and that this failure should have allowed for a reopening of the bidding process - or at least a fairer hearing than the Vikings got (they were summarily shot down) - especially given that they actually had a real counter-proposal ready to go.

[I am not "pro-Wilfs" - I just don't always get the near institutionalized dislike of them.]

mattaudio
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby mattaudio » August 27th, 2015, 12:39 pm

That's actually quite true, and I think the Wilfs should actually have a shot at this... But something seems fishy about how the MSFA threw a wrench into the Ryan proposal by preventing the building of an additional parking deck to serve the mixed use project (based on access/egress concerns during the largest events at The People's Stadium). Since those events are nearly all Vikings games, it seemed as though MSFA was doing the Wilf's bidding to prevent Ryan from delivering on their proposal. Anyone who has ever been stuck in a parking ramp trying to exit for 45 minutes knows that nobody who is parking on an additional level of the parking deck is going to willingly arrive/depart during Vikings ingress/egress. Therefore, if there are controls to ensure that MSFA imposes the same restrictions on Wilf as they did on Ryan, I don't have a problem reopening this if Ryan's rights expire.

Silophant
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby Silophant » August 27th, 2015, 1:15 pm

Well, the ramp is half done at this point. Unless it's being built to support another level, that itself will probably impose the same restrictions.

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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby MNdible » August 27th, 2015, 1:32 pm

Please take a little time to read the PDF I linked to above, as this answers many of these questions.

Per the May 22nd Strib article also posted above, Ryan elected to not exercise their option to build another level of parking above the ramp, which is why they're exploring the automated vertical parking option. Theoretically, the ramp is structured to support the additional level, so it could be added in the future, but it seems likely the reason they didn't exercise the option in the first place was because the Vikings and the MSFA had rendered the usage of the parking as operationally unattractive.

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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby VikingFaninMaryland » August 27th, 2015, 1:55 pm

Responding to mattaudio -

While I’ve heard the argument that the MSFA was very unreceptive to Ryan’s proposal for an additional level of parking with and independent ingress/egress and that they did so at the bidding of the Wilf’s, it should be noted that 1) the MSFA is a public entity with the actual authority concerning the building of the parking ramp, 2) the MFSA is beholden to the State of Minnesota and not the Wilf’s, 3) the Ryan request was a modification to a statutorily approved public work, and 4) that the proposed change order was not immediately relevant to the reason for Ryan’s deal falling through with its development team.

Having said that, I also accept that the Wilf’s may have been willing and able to play hardball on the issue. I am not saying I disagree with what you are saying, I’m just saying “so what?” (in a very non-hostile / play out the thought manner). That’s the construction world. In retrospect (and maybe even in real time - and being charitable), the Ryan bid may not have been realistic.

In a situation where the Vikings may have initially lost in their bid to an unrealistic competing bid, I could see why they might want to make a hard push. As I recall, their counter proposal was actually well scaled, appropriate to the location, and ready to go. From a business / legal perspective, that the Wilf’s request to reopen the bid in those circumstances was reasonable and should have been given a fairer hearing; especially as all Ryan had to fall back on was 1) a promise of something lesser than initially promised in the undefined future and 2) an emotional heavy emphasis on Ryan’s longstanding history with the City of Minneapolis (i.e., arguments made in lieu of a bona fide business proposal).

I think there are bruised ego’s on the Minneapolis Council and the relevant development offices owing to the Wilf’s superior bargaining skills during the stadium negotiations - where some were made to look less than sophisticated - and Ryan simply leveraged this to the detriment of the actual sustained development in the area. Like them or not, the Wilf’s had the superior position along with a better proposal that was actually real. Someone should have cried foul - not because of being pro-Wilf but rather because of what was in the best interest of the City of Minneapolis and the current ongoing development along East Downtown MPLS.

All I’m saying is that when the Vikings asked to reopen the bid, it was at a time when Ryan passed their deadline and had nothing in the hopper as a counter proposal and, in that situation, the Wilf’s “something” should have beaten Ryan’s “nothing” - especially given that these are currently hot construction sites. In this instance, it looks like the homeboys got the benefit of an irrational and iii-considered decision.

Lest we forget, that area of downtown Minneapolis has been the object of frustrating unmet development for over 40 years and - at the end of the day - its those nasty outsiders, those Wilf’s, who ended up being the actual genesis of the real large-scale total re-imamging of what would otherwise have been a run-down part of town with an abandoned stadium not unlike Pontiac stadium in Detroit.

ALSO: Yes, the Vikings are the main tenets, but the goal is to have that facility in operation most of the year (just like the dome was) - but playing to larger national venues. In this regard, its worth noting that, as part of the Wilf proposal, they proposed to build a sports/media node as part of their bid.

As noted, its not that I'm superpro Wilfs, its that I don't get the institutionalized hostility to everything they say and do - always reading the worst into everything they do. Its almost pathological.

bapster2006
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby bapster2006 » August 29th, 2015, 10:05 am

Progress in the area yesterday.

ImageDowntown East parking ramp construction area 8-28-15 by Matt Bappe, on Flickr

seanrichardryan
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby seanrichardryan » August 29th, 2015, 11:17 am

So, what's the Coroner going to do about that ugly parking lot?
Q. What, what? A. In da butt.


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