365 Nicollet (334' - 30 stories)

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
Zaptons67
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Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Postby Zaptons67 » February 28th, 2016, 7:00 pm

I don't know guys. I don't think "Impact on skyline" and "boring af parking podium" are on the top of many developers "before I build" checklists. I would hope some of you would take that frustration out by contacting the developer and encouraging them to rethink their decision making process. Besides that the whole free market thing is what is the problem. So until we can destroy that and install a dictator mayor ideally hand picked from our group, we won't have much more additional success at deciding what can and can not be built.

Qhaberl
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Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Postby Qhaberl » February 28th, 2016, 7:10 pm

Interesting discussion regarding the podium. If this project is constructed, anyone have an idea when it will start? I agree with you, Wedgeguy. Why Minneapolis hasn't band parking podiums on Nicolette [sic] Mall is beyond me.

Southside
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Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Postby Southside » February 28th, 2016, 7:45 pm

Parking podiums have the obvious benefit of creating inexpensive parking, relative to underground, and elevating residences. This is a clear win, win. On top of this, they also have created large amenity decks for tenants at a lot of developments.

Considering that in many cases the ground level still contains commercial and resident entrances I think the problem for the streetscape is highly overstated. I admit they can be unattractive, but I can think of many examples of appealing buildings with large parking podiums. At most, this seems like a simple problem that could usually be fixed with more opaque facades.

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Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Postby BigIdeasGuy » February 28th, 2016, 8:28 pm

I hope this project dies not because of the parking podium but because of the complete and total lack of ambition. That said I like the architecture of the building it just needs to have a grander vision. I'm usually pretty optimistic about the future of DT MPLS but if the economics of a taller building on THIS site doesn't work I'm not sure where it will.

proverfent
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Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Postby proverfent » February 28th, 2016, 9:10 pm

I agree. Minneapolis downtown deserves more.

min-chi-cbus
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Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Postby min-chi-cbus » February 28th, 2016, 9:50 pm

BigIdeasGuy wrote:I hope this project dies not because of the parking podium but because of the complete and total lack of ambition. That said I like the architecture of the building it just needs to have a grander vision. I'm usually pretty optimistic about the future of DT MPLS but if the economics of a taller building on THIS site doesn't work I'm not sure where it will.
Word. :ugeek:

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grant1simons2
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Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Postby grant1simons2 » February 28th, 2016, 9:57 pm

BigIdeasGuy wrote:I hope this project dies not because of the parking podium but because of the complete and total lack of ambition. That said I like the architecture of the building it just needs to have a grander vision. I'm usually pretty optimistic about the future of DT MPLS but if the economics of a taller building on THIS site doesn't work I'm not sure where it will.
Or because Opus is known for mediocre projects. Look, I don't like this project much but I'm desperate to see something here.

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Nathan
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Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Postby Nathan » February 28th, 2016, 11:10 pm

Mediocre maybe in your lifetime.

I mean I get it but you having a short attention span and being desperate to see something sooner than later still doesn't ring as good reasoning to condone such uses. I get that it seems unlikely that the developer would change its mind but they definitely aren't if everyone seems complacent to get whatever built because, now.

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grant1simons2
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Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Postby grant1simons2 » February 28th, 2016, 11:29 pm

Okay let's not get personal please. I don't have a "short attention span", I just don't see this site as a very big deal.

Wedgeguy
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Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Postby Wedgeguy » February 29th, 2016, 8:07 am

grant1simons2 wrote:Okay let's not get personal please. I don't have a "short attention span", I just don't see this site as a very big deal.
I'm sorry Grant, but every site on the mall is a big deal. Why we are upset with City Center, The Y's destroying the Gaviidee interior, the lack of retail on the ground level of the Xcel building, and the park by the Orchestra Hall. Once built it will likely be around for 50-90 years. So again, every site on the mall is a facet of the jewel and if we let more mediocre development get built, we dull/destroy the beauty of the mall one block at a time. Why Jacob Frey went after United for their not so stellar proposal. That is the gateway to the mall. Nothing like walking into a beautiful house foyer and then proceeding further in and finding a mediocre living room and a dining room where they use a card table for a dining table. You have just destroyed the image for the whole house with those mediocre sections that will stand out in peoples minds and not the beautiful things that are a part of other sections of the house.
I hope that is a good analogy of what I and others are trying to impress on the city and all developers. Your only as strong as your weakest link. Right now we have some pretty weak links and they are not that old which is the saddest part. At this point, not too many local developers have a very high standing for the product that they are putting out. If the Franklin and the United towers turn out to be gems, other developments by others will be looked at as low class trash that was built to make a buck and not for the good of the city as a whole. People outside this forum are saying how poorly designed many buildings are designed. So the circle that thinks things are mediocre is much larger than just this forum, much larger.

So if you don't think this site, right across from the city's Classy Library is not a big deal, I'd beg to say that this block will be seen by all who go to see our unique library and then see a parking podium across the street as the compliment. One could say that the library is the height of what MPLS can do for architecture, and the 365 is the depth of how mediocre our developers can go to make a buck.

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Nathan
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Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Postby Nathan » February 29th, 2016, 8:29 am

grant1simons2 wrote:Okay let's not get personal please. I don't have a "short attention span", I just don't see this site as a very big deal.
If it's not a big deal why are you desperate? Not trying to pick on you, just trying to prove a point. I'm also desperate for a nice project to reinvigorate one of the deadest parts of downtown that should be full of life. The library is here, it's the path to the river from the business district, it's the crossroads of Nicollet and Washington which is actively becoming one of the best streets in the city. It just doesn't make sense to me to rush to build something mediocre here just to cash in on the apartment boom with half baked amenity decks and above ground parking. 4 stories of office could provide an amenity deck as well, and activate the street and be covered in glass and help pay for the parking. I know the developer wants to do it quick and dirty to make money while the market is hot, but that isn't going to make me complacent.

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Silophant
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Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Postby Silophant » March 1st, 2016, 9:13 am

Mod Note: Moved downtown height limit discussion to a more appropriate thread.

Also, on the topic of ugly parking podiums on Nicollet, recall that there are liner apartments on the Nicollet side. You won't be able to see obvious parking from right in front.

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Nathan
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Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Postby Nathan » March 1st, 2016, 10:25 am

As I mentioned before that's what less than 1/5 of the total street face? That still seems like they're doing the bare minimum. I'm sure why more people aren't wanting a better urban building here, while the people who do want a better building just want a taller one. It's one of the last full blocks downtown in a critical location and it needs to be a connecting one.

amiller92
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Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Postby amiller92 » March 1st, 2016, 10:37 am

The part of the parking podium with nothing above it is certainly less than ideal.

min-chi-cbus
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Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Postby min-chi-cbus » March 1st, 2016, 11:15 am

Nathan wrote:As I mentioned before that's what less than 1/5 of the total street face? That still seems like they're doing the bare minimum. I'm sure why more people aren't wanting a better urban building here, while the people who do want a better building just want a taller one. It's one of the last full blocks downtown in a critical location and it needs to be a connecting one.
What would you like to see instead, if you could choose?

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Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Postby twincitizen » March 1st, 2016, 12:47 pm

Wedgeguy wrote:every site on the mall is a big deal. Why we are upset with City Center, The Y's destroying the Gaviidae interior, the lack of retail on the ground level of the Xcel building, and the park by the Orchestra Hall. Once built it will likely be around for 50-90 years. So again, every site on the mall is a facet of the jewel and if we let more mediocre development get built, we dull/destroy the beauty of the mall one block at a time. Why Jacob Frey went after United for their not so stellar proposal. That is the gateway to the mall. ---snip--- So if you don't think this site, right across from the city's Classy Library is not a big deal, I'd beg to say that this block will be seen by all who go to see our unique library and then see a parking podium across the street as the compliment. One could say that the library is the height of what MPLS can do for architecture, and the 365 is the depth of how mediocre our developers can go to make a buck.
I want to acknowledge your first few sentences and agree with you about Gaviidae and City Center. The threat to Gaviidae's potential resurgence as a retail center is a big concern that I share. I would like to see it left alone to maximize its potential on the lower floors. City Center's potential is being squandered by the total lack of investment in redoing the exterior, even as new anchor retail tenants are coming in. Getting Sports Authority and Saks (back) in is no small feat, but the fact that no actual improvements are being made is a big disappointment. Now would absolutely be the time to do it.

That said, I must rebut this whole ideology that many of you share that all of Nicollet Mall is going to be some grand shopping street that stretches for blocks and blocks.

Even under the wildest of dreams, Nicollet as a shopping destination will always stop at 5th Street. The blank spaces created by Xcel (old and new) and the library itself (being essentially dead fortress outside of limited library hours) creates too large a gap to overcome. Downtown Minneapolis' traditional retail district is 5th Street to 9th Street, and even that is painting a pretty rosy scenario. In reality it's more like 6th to 8th (IDS-Macys-City Center-Gaviidae), and as noted above, even the core of the core needs serious reinvestment.

Stop envisioning Nicollet as some shopping street that it is NEVER going to become. Could the core area (6th-8th) get a lot better? Absolutely, we are in agreement on that. Could that expand up to 5th, down to 9th, 10th? Absolutely. But Nicollet's "shopping district" is never going to jump the LRT tracks and dead space created by Xcel and the library.

That's not to say that the street frontage of 365 Nicollet or anything else shouldn't be built to great architectural standards and best practices for pedestrian friendliness, etc. I'm just saying it shouldn't have to meet the imaginary standards of hosting " destination shopping street" retail that some of you ascribe to it.

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Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Postby amiller92 » March 1st, 2016, 1:08 pm

twincitizen wrote: the fact that no actual improvements [to City Center] are being made is a big disappointment.
Super-tiny, small beans, but the opening of the doors from Sports Authority to Nicollet is a bit of an improvement. Hopefully Saks will be open to the street too.
Even under the wildest of dreams, Nicollet as a shopping destination will always stop at 5th Street.
Hm. Not sure that has to be the case. I'll grant you Xcel, but there's empty retail a the Nic and Renaissance Square, which if filled would make Xcel not that big of a gap to have to jump.
the library itself (being essentially dead fortress outside of limited library hours)
The library is open 12 hours a day four days a week, 9-5 on Saturday and 12-5 on Sunday. There aren't many things downtown that are open that much. And it's arguably the most consistently active/occupied part of the mall. Many of its patrons may not be from the key retail demographics, but its not at all a dead space.

And of course, it's right next to a pretty active transit hub.
Downtown Minneapolis' traditional retail district is 5th Street to 9th Street, and even that is painting a pretty rosy scenario. In reality it's more like 6th to 8th (IDS-Macys-City Center-Gaviidae), and as noted above, even the core of the core needs serious reinvestment.
That describes my lifetime, I guess, but if traditional goes back a little farther, it's a lot more than that. Not that I think we can recreate the pre-freeway downtown retail scene.

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Nathan
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Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Postby Nathan » March 1st, 2016, 2:10 pm

Yeah I'm sorry I don't really appreciate you telling anyone on the forum to "stop" having high expectations for a street that's about to go through a 50 million dollar renovation and will hopefully soon have a street car running down it. I don't think that's appropriate of you to say at all. The library also has a Dunn brothers cafe and the Nicollet hotel block is about to have a bunch of retail bays along with these two new opus towers on Nicollet. This area is adding hundreds of residents over the next couple of years and the popularity of North loop and mill city are closing in on the gateway district. Yikes, that's the least respectable thing I've ever heard you say.

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Nathan
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Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Postby Nathan » March 1st, 2016, 2:14 pm

min-chi-cbus wrote:
Nathan wrote:As I mentioned before that's what less than 1/5 of the total street face? That still seems like they're doing the bare minimum. I'm sure why more people aren't wanting a better urban building here, while the people who do want a better building just want a taller one. It's one of the last full blocks downtown in a critical location and it needs to be a connecting one.
What would you like to see instead, if you could choose?
Is like to see the parking ramp step back from the retail rather than hang over, I'd like to see more engaging entrances to the retail and skyway, higher quality materials at least at the ground level. Some dimension to the "architectural" features.

When the balconies are the most interesting thing on a big project like this, somethings wrong. It's like a poor man's aqua (in Chicago) a decade too late and not even trying.

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Re: 365 Nicollet - (Opus Ritz block)

Postby m b p » April 12th, 2016, 1:18 pm



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