LPM Apartments - (376' - 36 Stories)

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
Civilization

Re: Loring Park Apartments - (1368 LaSalle Avenue)

Postby Civilization » October 31st, 2012, 8:59 pm

FISHMANPET wrote:I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make. Maybe if you stated a clear thesis we could engage with you but if you just post a stream of consciousness nonsense with one sentence per line, nobody is going to do anything but mock you.

I also don't understand why you keep going on and on about selling the units, since these are rentals. How can you say that these will come on the market at half the cost of surrounding units when there's no sales price stated (because they're not for sale!). And even if you did have "sales prices" for these units, I'd still think it silly, because in what world would a developer fight tooth and nail to build something and then give away half their revenue for no apparent reason?

I'm also going to have a hard time buying an environmental argument against building dense housing, but it sounds like maybe you're trying to make that argument as well?
First off if you read the city's documentation on this development going back to 2005 you would known both Eitel and Loring park apartments were originally meant to be sold condos.

Two just because Eitel and Loring Park Apartments are now rental doesnt mean the property price per unit doesnt affect the sale price of condos. My crap studio in this crap brownstone does have a tax value. that tax value is part of its appraised value and the appraised value of rental units affects the appraised value of $800,000 townhouses down the street. Its an adult mature topic that you consider when you've joined the adult world. And its a huge debate item in regards to development.

And its difficult to debate or even factor in environment or sustainability factors when a Environmental Impact Study has not been comoleted on any privately funded and developed property.

Other major cities which are situated among large bodies of water, rivers, streams and lakes do have these studies.

Because Minneapolis ceased to have stringent processes and policies it mimics cities like Detroit rather than major cities with sustainable growth.

Civilization

Re: Loring Park Apartments - (1368 LaSalle Avenue)

Postby Civilization » October 31st, 2012, 9:04 pm

And I also find it kinda coincidential that Minneapolis' properties were tax assessed last year (10 year cycle) and now the city is allowing mid priced rental developments and affordable housing to be built and assessed. The changes in the market wont lower taxable property values until the next cycle, 9 years from now.

Tyler
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Re: Loring Park Apartments - (1368 LaSalle Avenue)

Postby Tyler » October 31st, 2012, 9:17 pm

WTF are you babbling on about? This will be one of the nicest buildings in Loring Park. Or do the residents automatically bring down the value since they won't be old money who migrated from *the lakes* (where they evidently should have stayed?)?
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Civilization

Re: Loring Park Apartments - (1368 LaSalle Avenue)

Postby Civilization » October 31st, 2012, 9:29 pm

Tyler wrote:WTF are you babbling on about? This will be one of the nicest buildings in Loring Park. Or do the residents automatically bring down the value since they won't be old money who migrated from *the lakes* (where they evidently should have stayed?)?
You dont understand. 355 units that are half the average value of a unit in DowntownWest.

7th Ward average home value is $400,000.

This new property will bring down the value of properties in Loring Park. What the city should have done is take out a couple buildings on Oak Grove that are eyesores and crime magnets.

And I am speculating whether or not there will be a levy on property owners to address infastructure costs.

Last tax levy on this neighborhood was financed with parking citations and towing.

Now due to this construction more renters will park less often on the streets to be towed or citationed.

Plus what the city was pulling in from citations and towing cannot possibly pay for a fraction of the infastructure upgrades.

And several years ago it was debated whether Downtown West needed a electrical utilities substation. It does but it would have to go on the otherside of Lyndale/Hennepin which Kenwood residents would stop.

Minneapolisite

Re: Loring Park Apartments - (1368 LaSalle Avenue)

Postby Minneapolisite » October 31st, 2012, 9:37 pm

I biked down from NE just not too long ago and took a look at what´s going on. It´s dark out, but I believe I saw a pile of torn-up parking lot.

Tyler
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Re: Loring Park Apartments - (1368 LaSalle Avenue)

Postby Tyler » October 31st, 2012, 9:37 pm

You have no idea what you are talking about. It's already been stated it's costing around 280K per unit just to build this thing. With the average unit under 1K sq ft that is SIGNIFICANTLY higher $/sq ft than those homes you speak of.
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Andrew_F
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Re: Loring Park Apartments - (1368 LaSalle Avenue)

Postby Andrew_F » October 31st, 2012, 9:45 pm

I'm at little confused as to why you're focused so much on the average home value? I have to imagine that these units are valued significantly higher than equivalent units square footage/bedroom/access wise. I also seriously doubt that the taxes from this building won't cover the increased demand on infrastructure. Nor do I follow your point on parking. I'm not sure how a new tower with a parking/bedroom ratio lower than almost all new development replacing a surface parking lot could possibly decrease street parking demand. As to the environmental impact study, you seem focused on bodies of water. What are you concerned about, runoff? Again, we're talking about replacing a surface lot with a building, which should theoretically have cleaner runoff. If you're concerned about the health of Loring Lake, I'd be happy to let you know that this lot drains directly to the Mississippi.

Civilization

Re: Loring Park Apartments - (1368 LaSalle Avenue)

Postby Civilization » October 31st, 2012, 9:52 pm

Tyler wrote:You have no idea what you are talking about. It's already been stated it's costing around 280K per unit just to build this thing. With the average unit under 1K sq ft that is SIGNIFICANTLY higher $/sq ft than those homes you speak of.

Do you know what neighborhoods are of the seventh ward?

Gov. Dayton leased a street level townhouse for $2400 a month which looks out onto the Loring Greenway.

I dated a guy with a three level townhouse and rooftop terrace at Grant towers. Average unit there is 3-12 times the average price of these units.

I dont object to Grant Towers being built, it was smartly done. And more properties in the north section of Elliot Park are ideal for towers.

City had seven years to address sustainability and infastructure on the 1368 property.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Loring Park Apartments - (1368 LaSalle Avenue)

Postby FISHMANPET » October 31st, 2012, 9:53 pm

Construction cost has very little relation to value, especially in an area like this.

In theory, increasing supply could have an overall downward effect on housing price, but you're going to have to convince me that lower housing prices (within reason) is a bad thing.

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Re: Loring Park Apartments - (1368 LaSalle Avenue)

Postby Tyler » October 31st, 2012, 9:58 pm

Civilization wrote: I dated a guy with a three level townhouse and rooftop terrace at Grant towers. Average unit there is 3-12 times the average price of these units.
No. Just no.
FISHMANPET wrote:Construction cost has very little relation to value, especially in an area like this.
In theory, increasing supply could have an overall downward effect on housing price, but you're going to have to convince me that lower housing prices (within reason) is a bad thing.
.

Right. I was just using it as an illustration. My point is that a 700 sq ft unit "worth" 300K is not "half the value" of a 2500 sq ft unit worth 600K.

Edit: Actually, that's not well said. My only point is that ignoring unit size and $/sq ft is idiocy.
Last edited by Tyler on October 31st, 2012, 10:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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FISHMANPET
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Re: Loring Park Apartments - (1368 LaSalle Avenue)

Postby FISHMANPET » October 31st, 2012, 10:00 pm

Oh my God this is insane. I'm going to resort to the point by point rebuttal, because to be honest, you don't seem to be able to hold a single thought for more than a sentnece or two.
Civilization wrote: Do you know what neighborhoods are of the seventh ward?
According to the City of Minneapolis website: Bryn Mawr, Cedar-Isles-Dean, Downtown Minneapolis, Elliot Park, Kenwood-Isles, Loring Park, Lowry Hill, and North Loop. Is there a point to the question?
Gov. Dayton leased a street level townhouse for $2400 a month which looks out onto the Loring Greenway.
Assuming that's true, that's cool, but not sure what that has to do with anything.
I dated a guy with a three level townhouse and rooftop terrace at Grant towers. Average unit there is 3-12 times the average price of these units.
Again assuming thats true, that's another fun fact. And I'm not sure what it means to be 3-12 times the average "price" (still not sure what you mean by price). That's quite the range, up to four times off. Is my rent $1000 month or is it $4000? I can never tell.
I dont object to Grant Towers being built, it was smartly done. And more properties in the north section of Elliot Park are ideal for towers.
I don't even know what to say here, but I guess I'll read between the lines and say what makes this site not ideal for a tower?
City had seven years to address sustainability and infastructure on the 1368 property.
What sustainability and infrastructure issues are there here that need to be addressed?

Civilization

Re: Loring Park Apartments - (1368 LaSalle Avenue)

Postby Civilization » October 31st, 2012, 10:16 pm

DaPerpKazoo wrote:I'm at little confused as to why you're focused so much on the average home value? I have to imagine that these units are valued significantly higher than equivalent units square footage/bedroom/access wise. I also seriously doubt that the taxes from this building won't cover the increased demand on infrastructure. Nor do I follow your point on parking. I'm not sure how a new tower with a parking/bedroom ratio lower than almost all new development replacing a surface parking lot could possibly decrease street parking demand. As to the environmental impact study, you seem focused on bodies of water. What are you concerned about, runoff? Again, we're talking about replacing a surface lot with a building, which should theoretically have cleaner runoff. If you're concerned about the health of Loring Lake, I'd be happy to let you know that this lot drains directly to the Mississippi.
Most of what you stated is not in the least related to what I stated.

1. watershed
2. when putting more weight onto a property than what was there before the soil shifts. The entire neighborhood is a former swamp and doesnt have grades of rock, its a sponge.
3. air quality, add more cars, more people, plus with incinerators downtown more garbage is going to get burnt downtown. Watermain has burst a few times and that goes under building foundations.
4. MCTC plaza was remodeled to absorb storm runoff, it wasnt going into the park it was going to the foundations of the Loring Green, 10 on Grand. Towers surrounding the Loring Greenway all have substantial foundation issues.

In regards to the taxes. Loring Park is part of downtown and its part of a tax district. Condo owners associations along the Loring Greenway balked at a taxy levy for the infustructure costs to deter rain water run off from their tower foundations. So an increase in parking citations and towing went into effect. Several amendments to traffic ordinances were passed since 2003 which affected downtown west moreso than other neighborhoods.

Eitel had less than half the promised underground parking spaces. And the same developer is building 1368, this time with the promise of "elevator parking". I am convinced this tower will have 1/3 of its promised parking spaces, otherwise a contingency plan of using Hyatt's parking ramp wouldnt have been pitched.

There are a couple of Loring Properties which could be developed like Eitel or even like Ivy Towers. And I would prefer that. Yet the old stately historical apartments on the corner of LaSalle and 94 face an interstate highway so federal restrictions would factor in. And Magellan doesnt want any restrictions. So the owner of the building is still prepared to sell, he doubled rents to make it easier to move tenants once he does sell.

Back to the price per units. We wont know the value of the property until it gets built because what magellan promises isnt what they will deliver.

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Re: Loring Park Apartments - (1368 LaSalle Avenue)

Postby mplsjaromir » October 31st, 2012, 10:20 pm

There have been four reasons stated why this is a bad project.

The first was is was too loud and some would lose sleep.

Second it was said it would upset the social order of the "old money".

Third reason was that the greedy developers were destroying the social services that once thrived in Loring Park.

Now its said that the city has not addressed the infrastructure needed, and tax revenues will not be sufficient. When earlier this week it was said that caring about city tax receipts was not important.

I seriously doubt Magellan is building a tower that does not have enough basic utilities. A tower with this many units is going to assessed for several million dollars more than an empty parking lot, thus thousands of more tax dollars per year.

P.S. Grant Park homes are condos not apartments, now I do not know what the county (not city) assessment will be for 1368 LaSalle, but it will not be for 1/12th of what a City Home Unit is at Grant Park. That I say in full confidence.

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Re: Loring Park Apartments - (1368 LaSalle Avenue)

Postby Tyler » October 31st, 2012, 10:23 pm

Just go ahead and admit you simply loathe the type of people you think will move in here. Everything else is just a smoke screen.
Towns!

Civilization

Re: Loring Park Apartments - (1368 LaSalle Avenue)

Postby Civilization » October 31st, 2012, 10:27 pm

fishmanpet I've answered your questions.

These units per square foot will still be assessed at half the taxable worth of other existing private condos.

And a number of those towers units are owned by real estate owners who are now renting them. Renting these condos took an amendment to local ordinances. And condo owners were furious. Then the real estate brokers asked for a tax break. I think then a number of downtown residents sold and left.

You folks really have to more than just read webpages, marketing pamphlets and take photos.

Talk to the people who live here to get a more complete picture of the impact of development.

I know I sounded flippant, I was being sarcastic.

More development would be nice, but more accountability and transparency is neccessary.

Magellan and BKV Group are new comers to Mpls. And from the city's planning commission notes they've done a fraction of the necessary research, planning and preparation compared to tower projects done 15 years ago. Its not an improvement.

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Re: Loring Park Apartments - (1368 LaSalle Avenue)

Postby Tyler » October 31st, 2012, 10:30 pm

Civilization wrote: These units per square foot will still be assessed at half the taxable worth of other existing private condos.
Explain.
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Andrew_F
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Re: Loring Park Apartments - (1368 LaSalle Avenue)

Postby Andrew_F » October 31st, 2012, 10:30 pm

Civilization wrote:
1. watershed
2. when putting more weight onto a property than what was there before the soil shifts. The entire neighborhood is a former swamp and doesnt have grades of rock, its a sponge.
3. air quality, add more cars, more people, plus with incinerators downtown more garbage is going to get burnt downtown. Watermain has burst a few times and that goes under building foundations.
4. MCTC plaza was remodeled to absorb storm runoff, it wasnt going into the park it was going to the foundations of the Loring Green, 10 on Grand. Towers surrounding the Loring Greenway all have substantial foundation issues.
1. Let me say this again-- this property does not drain to Loring Lake. It, like most of Loring Park, drains directly to the Mississippi through a deep bore tunnel under 94.
2. Not sure what soil has to do with this...we're talking about replacing one impermeable surface with a different impermeable surface.
3. You seriously think the traffic from this is going to affect air quality in a significant measure? Please.
4. Not sure how this is relevant...

And the same developer is building 1368
Nope.

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Andrew_F
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Re: Loring Park Apartments - (1368 LaSalle Avenue)

Postby Andrew_F » October 31st, 2012, 10:33 pm

Civilization wrote:
Magellan and BKV Group are new comers to Mpls.
What? BKV is headquartered in Minneapolis and has been since 1978.

Tyler
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Re: Loring Park Apartments - (1368 LaSalle Avenue)

Postby Tyler » October 31st, 2012, 10:35 pm

DaPerpKazoo wrote:
Civilization wrote:
Magellan and BKV Group are new comers to Mpls.
What? BKV is headquartered in Minneapolis and has been since 1978.
Exactly what she said. New comers. Civilivation's family has been here since the day after god created tomatoes.
Towns!

Civilization

Re: Loring Park Apartments - (1368 LaSalle Avenue)

Postby Civilization » October 31st, 2012, 10:41 pm

Tyler wrote:Just go ahead and admit you simply loathe the type of people you think will move in here. Everything else is just a smoke screen.

Actually there you are wrong.

Over the last decade I have been trading barbs, dirty looks and wicked gossip with Loring Greenway residents. I hate them and also feel comfortable with them.

I suspect corporations will buy chunks of units to lease to their relocated consultants. A number of Loring Green units are leased to outsourcing tycoons and they are the ones sending my jobs overseas. They also helped me learn just how much in common Indians have with North Africans. That lead me to release prior biases and learn to embrace globalization.

Eitel residents will orobably share the same property management company with Magellan. And I've given a number of transplants residing at Eitel pointers on how to adapt to Minneapolis. Including how to deal with the homeless in Loring Park. Two homeless shelters are here at the churches. This was a huge shift in social perspective for transplants. Learning to share Loring Park with all economic levels of society will enrich your Minneapolis experience.

To practice full disclosure my family doctor was treated at Eitel hospital as a child. The experience encouraged him to enter medicine and he trained my mother as a nurse. He delivered me. So I was so happy when Eitel was developed. And its also why I have closely watched Eitel's and 1368 development.


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