What will it take to develop DTE?

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
User avatar
Nathan
Capella Tower
Posts: 3977
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 10:42 am

Re: What will it take to develop DTE?

Postby Nathan » September 26th, 2012, 1:41 pm

tabletop wrote:What if the parking lots were converted into underground lots, and above were built 3-4 story row houses and apartments. Nice and dense on small lots. I'm thinking if you broke down the city block into quarters with small pedestrian only streets (wide enough for fire trucks) bisecting the blocks with nice pedestrian only facades that would lead to a real quiet neighborhood feel while leaving the arterial streets intact without loosing any parking. There could be street facing lots and walkway facing lots.
I really like this idea... Another thought that I had, good or not, to save the "tail gating" is what if 2 or 3 of the blocks were 2-3 story mixed use on the front and parking lots on the back with large green spaces and level parking so all of the tailgating was actually elevated 2 stories?

MillCityTimes
Block E
Posts: 19
Joined: August 28th, 2012, 6:07 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN Mill District
Contact:

Re: What will it take to develop DTE?

Postby MillCityTimes » September 26th, 2012, 5:33 pm

Minneapolisite wrote:Here's a visual of what I'm talking about. Which highway overpass do you like better:

A?

Image

or B?

One connects neighborhoods and increases both of their destination factors, while the other scars the urban environment and isolates two neighboring business districts. I can think of no better solution to encourage more development by extending the popular spots on Washington into Seven Corners. Even with the on/off ramps the retail on the bridge would be more than enough to make crossing I-35 a much more pleasant experience and vibrantly economic where no businesses existed. How else would we expect this bridge to pay for itself? Yeah, I suggested destinations in Elliot Park would help, but not as much due to commercial spaces being rather far removed from the action on Washington and 2nd.
Here's a concept from the Downtown 2025 Plan. Shown is Washington Ave. where it crosses 35W, (I combined 2 graphics into 1 for this image)

Image

Here's a link to the full size image... http://www.flickr.com/photos/millcityti ... /lightbox/
David Tinjum
Mill City Times
http://MillCityTimes.com

Minneapolisite

Re: What will it take to develop DTE?

Postby Minneapolisite » September 26th, 2012, 5:54 pm

I was actually being facetious about the bridge paying for itself: lots of road/highway projects are incredibly expensive and don't require much evidence, if any, that such projects are really *needed*. In the case of Washington, I-35 is definitely a wider gap (I'm estimating twice as wide as the gap I-670 created) and I wouldn't see this treatment commonly applied elsewhere, but in this case both ends are desirable locations with commercial activity that would benefit from being re-connected. Aside from the steakhouse, the rest of the retail on the Columbus cap is interchangeable with businesses on solid(er) ground just north or south: a coffee shop-bar, two bars, and a bar-restaurant, (and Bar 23 is about the last place I'd describe as "high-end" regardless of its location). Based on the existing retail there, in Minneapolis, places in the vein of Town Hall Brewery, Republic, Spoon River, or Sea Change would be the most likely to appear. As expensive as it would be, I'm sure any alternative to connect the two areas together seamlessly, like moving this stretch of I-35 elsewhere, would make it look (relatively) cheap. In Columbus it cost $7.8 million , so I'm thinking now it would be around $20-$25 million due to the length of the Washington Ave bridge and some inflation: not bad considering the end result. In any case, it could probably be done cheaper if there are just a couple of structures on just one or both ends to make the bridge-only section seem shorter.

The proposed 2025 plan rendering has some positive aspects, like the food vendors, but even so it would still be lacking in the evenings unless the city allows the sale of alcohol for designated patio spaces. If I can't bar hop across the bridge
I can't call it a success. :mrgreen: Not to mention that buildings blocking out the highway are about the only way to make you forget that you're crossing a highway, which we're very aware of today. And that certainly deters cross traffic between the Mill District and Seven Corners (although I avoid that unpleasantness by traveling on 2 wheels).

Minneapolisite

Re: What will it take to develop DTE?

Postby Minneapolisite » September 26th, 2012, 6:06 pm

Oh yeah, a quick fix to get more of the right parties interested in DTE would be to make sure that you make it a point to regularly support businesses there. I know I've spent a decent amount of money in the neighborhood, and by a good margin, at Zen Box, but I do head out to other destinations, all on Washington (I love it when unsuspecting visitors ask for the nearest ATM and get directed to The Eagle). 2nd Ave, is a different story: a little too fancy for my taste (I don't think I've been to a single spot on that strip yet).

User avatar
Nick
Capella Tower
Posts: 2985
Joined: May 30th, 2012, 9:33 pm
Location: Loring Park, Minneapolis

Re: What will it take to develop DTE?

Postby Nick » September 26th, 2012, 6:14 pm

Zen Box is sooooooo good.

But I mean, if you're literally creating taxable land out of thin air, couldn't you sell bonds to finance the improvement, and plow all tax revenue generated for a certain period of time from that new land into repaying the bonds? Seems to work pretty regularly with TIF districts just using the increase in tax revenues of existing land.

MillCityTimes
Block E
Posts: 19
Joined: August 28th, 2012, 6:07 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN Mill District
Contact:

Re: What will it take to develop DTE?

Postby MillCityTimes » September 26th, 2012, 6:26 pm

Minneapolisite wrote:Oh yeah, a quick fix to get more of the right parties interested in DTE would be to make sure that you make it a point to regularly support businesses there. I know I've spent a decent amount of money in the neighborhood, and by a good margin, at Zen Box, but I do head out to other destinations, all on Washington (I love it when unsuspecting visitors ask for the nearest ATM and get directed to The Eagle). 2nd Ave, is a different story: a little too fancy for my taste (I don't think I've been to a single spot on that strip yet).
Grumpy's has a great weekend brunch menu, lot's of unique items. Sanctuary is our favorite for special occasions, spendy but worth it. I get my hair cut at Men's Dept. And Zen Box is our fave for casual, owners Jon &b Lina are there almost every night, and have become very active in supporting the neighborhood. Behind the Scenes is a hot spot for women's fashion. Mill City Market is a great grocery & deli. The coffee shop at Open Book is where I get my daily latte fix. These establishments are just a few reasons to support this end of Washington Ave.

[Disclosure - Mill City Times is a not-for-profit project that does not accept advertising or any other type of compensation, and has no financial interests in any establishment mentioned in this post]
David Tinjum
Mill City Times
http://MillCityTimes.com

nickmgray
Union Depot
Posts: 331
Joined: July 3rd, 2012, 10:40 am

Re: What will it take to develop DTE?

Postby nickmgray » September 28th, 2012, 8:11 am

I think the reason the area has not been developed is because people have been waiting for ten years to see what would become of the Metro Dome. Now that we know the vikings stadium will be the center point of DTE, developers will start rolling out plans as soon as the final stadium proposal is unveiled.

To make this area more inviting, the city needs to do something about the streets. Right now, they are simply acting as a funnel from to get people into the core, but if they want a true neighborhood, the streets need to be re-engineered to accommodate people getting around this area, not just through it. The best solution for this could be to change most the one way streets into two way streets.

Other than that, there's really no big changes that need to be made. Development will start closer to the Washington side and move south to connect to HCMC. There's huge potential on the south side of HCMC as well, but I think developers will be more interested in getting their projects around the vikings stadium first.

Didier
Capella Tower
Posts: 2371
Joined: June 3rd, 2012, 10:11 am
Location: MSP

Re: What will it take to develop DTE?

Postby Didier » September 28th, 2012, 8:14 am

Are there still plans to add/move a 35W entrance ramp to 3rd or 4th Street?

MillCityTimes
Block E
Posts: 19
Joined: August 28th, 2012, 6:07 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN Mill District
Contact:

Re: What will it take to develop DTE?

Postby MillCityTimes » September 28th, 2012, 8:20 am

Didier wrote:Are there still plans to add/move a 35W entrance ramp to 3rd or 4th Street?
Yes, in 2013. Here are the details -

http://hennepin.us/portal/site/Hennepin ... fe4689RCRD
David Tinjum
Mill City Times
http://MillCityTimes.com

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7721
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: What will it take to develop DTE?

Postby mattaudio » September 28th, 2012, 8:36 am

^ and I wish there was a way to create a southbound exit from 35W to 3rd Street... if it would help take traffic off Washington it would be a good improvement. Also not sure who uses the northbound 35W to 3rd Street ramp since most people would use the 5th Ave exit. It seems to be mostly for people coming from the west on 394/94 that want to get somewhere near the Dome without going all the way through downtown. Yet it would be easy enough for them to use Washington Ave, so I say ditch the ramp and replace it with one coming from 35W southbound.

mulad
Moderator
Posts: 2763
Joined: June 4th, 2012, 6:30 pm
Location: Saint Paul
Contact:

Re: What will it take to develop DTE?

Postby mulad » September 28th, 2012, 11:48 am

This idea makes me want to just remove the ramps to/from Washington Avenue entirely and reconfigure 3rd/4th to handle traffic in all directions.

MNdible
is great.
Posts: 5649
Joined: June 8th, 2012, 8:14 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: What will it take to develop DTE?

Postby MNdible » September 28th, 2012, 12:09 pm

mulad wrote:This idea makes me want to just remove the ramps to/from Washington Avenue entirely and reconfigure 3rd/4th to handle traffic in all directions.
Yes, I'm not sure what it would take to achieve that, but I agree that we should continue moving in that direction.

helsinki
Landmark Center
Posts: 298
Joined: October 9th, 2012, 2:01 am

Re: What will it take to develop DTE?

Postby helsinki » October 9th, 2012, 8:47 am

My family has lived in DTE for 8 years and I have always thought that the key to developing the neighborhood (making it imaginable for residential life / commercial activity) is improving the sidewalks and streetscape. In my opinion, this simply requires widening sidewalks, removing traffic lanes, and planting trees. Nothing genius or difficult.

Many streets never have significant automobile traffic. 3rd, 4th, and 5th Streets between the freeways and the CBD are generally dead (modestly full at rush hour). Park, Portland, and Chicago between the LRT and Washington are similarly dead (makes sense - there's nothing there to go to/from). With at least three traffic lanes, two parking lanes (silly given the overabundance of parking in the area) and a bike lane on each of these streets, there is ample room to convert some roadway to sidewalk. Regardless, if automobile capacity is the focus of design efforts, this attitude will serve to obstruct residential / commercial development. Transportation by foot / bike should be given priority in an area so close to the core.

An example of what I would like to see is this:

http://overthebarsinmilwaukee.files.wor ... inal-2.jpg

Repairing the sidewalks/streets in this manner would be a great catalyst for development. It really isn't that expensive either (especially given the absurd numbers spent on nonsense like the Stillwater bridge). Personally, I think improvements like this should be incorporated into the design of the new stadium (although given the retro emphasis placed on tailgating, we're probably going to witness some epic failures of imagination with that particular project).

User avatar
woofner
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1329
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 10:04 am

Re: What will it take to develop DTE?

Postby woofner » October 9th, 2012, 10:12 am

Glad to hear it from a longtime East Downtown resident. If you haven't talked to her already, Lisa Goodman can be contacted here:

http://www.minneapolismn.gov/ward7/contact-ward7

Or else remember that the City's email address format is first_name.last_name@minneapolismn.gov.

Better let her know now before the new ward map splits East Downtown between three councilmembers, none of whom will then give a shit about it.
"Who rescued whom!"

PhilmerPhil
Moderator
Posts: 1205
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 11:38 am
Location: SOUP: SOuth UPtown

Re: What will it take to develop DTE?

Postby PhilmerPhil » October 9th, 2012, 10:14 am

helsinki wrote:My family has lived in DTE for 8 years and I have always thought that the key to developing the neighborhood (making it imaginable for residential life / commercial activity) is improving the sidewalks and streetscape. In my opinion, this simply requires widening sidewalks, removing traffic lanes, and planting trees. Nothing genius or difficult.

Many streets never have significant automobile traffic. 3rd, 4th, and 5th Streets between the freeways and the CBD are generally dead (modestly full at rush hour). Park, Portland, and Chicago between the LRT and Washington are similarly dead (makes sense - there's nothing there to go to/from). With at least three traffic lanes, two parking lanes (silly given the overabundance of parking in the area) and a bike lane on each of these streets, there is ample room to convert some roadway to sidewalk. Regardless, if automobile capacity is the focus of design efforts, this attitude will serve to obstruct residential / commercial development. Transportation by foot / bike should be given priority in an area so close to the core.

An example of what I would like to see is this:

http://overthebarsinmilwaukee.files.wor ... inal-2.jpg

Repairing the sidewalks/streets in this manner would be a great catalyst for development. It really isn't that expensive either (especially given the absurd numbers spent on nonsense like the Stillwater bridge). Personally, I think improvements like this should be incorporated into the design of the new stadium (although given the retro emphasis placed on tailgating, we're probably going to witness some epic failures of imagination with that particular project).

I completely agree. Unfortunately, with the new stadium, there will continue to be 8 days a year where we will need maximum auto capacity to move cars into and out of downtown, so I don't think we'll be seeing any major changes any time soon.

Didier
Capella Tower
Posts: 2371
Joined: June 3rd, 2012, 10:11 am
Location: MSP

Re: What will it take to develop DTE?

Postby Didier » October 9th, 2012, 10:45 am

Are we really suggesting that Vikings games are the only time there is heavy traffic downtown?

User avatar
woofner
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1329
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 10:04 am

Re: What will it take to develop DTE?

Postby woofner » October 9th, 2012, 11:34 am

Didier wrote:Are we really suggesting that Vikings games are the only time there is heavy traffic downtown?
No, we're talking about East Downtown, not the core.
"Who rescued whom!"

helsinki
Landmark Center
Posts: 298
Joined: October 9th, 2012, 2:01 am

Re: What will it take to develop DTE?

Postby helsinki » October 11th, 2012, 2:10 am

PhilmerPhil wrote:
helsinki wrote:My family has lived in DTE for 8 years and I have always thought that the key to developing the neighborhood (making it imaginable for residential life / commercial activity) is improving the sidewalks and streetscape. In my opinion, this simply requires widening sidewalks, removing traffic lanes, and planting trees. Nothing genius or difficult.

Many streets never have significant automobile traffic. 3rd, 4th, and 5th Streets between the freeways and the CBD are generally dead (modestly full at rush hour). Park, Portland, and Chicago between the LRT and Washington are similarly dead (makes sense - there's nothing there to go to/from). With at least three traffic lanes, two parking lanes (silly given the overabundance of parking in the area) and a bike lane on each of these streets, there is ample room to convert some roadway to sidewalk. Regardless, if automobile capacity is the focus of design efforts, this attitude will serve to obstruct residential / commercial development. Transportation by foot / bike should be given priority in an area so close to the core.

An example of what I would like to see is this:

http://overthebarsinmilwaukee.files.wor ... inal-2.jpg

Repairing the sidewalks/streets in this manner would be a great catalyst for development. It really isn't that expensive either (especially given the absurd numbers spent on nonsense like the Stillwater bridge). Personally, I think improvements like this should be incorporated into the design of the new stadium (although given the retro emphasis placed on tailgating, we're probably going to witness some epic failures of imagination with that particular project).

I completely agree. Unfortunately, with the new stadium, there will continue to be 8 days a year where we will need maximum auto capacity to move cars into and out of downtown, so I don't think we'll be seeing any major changes any time soon.

Perhaps, although I have never understood this. Why must 80,000 people park within walking distance of the stadium? Why can't there be remote parking lots with free shuttle buses (as is practiced at innumerable locations, for instance at Disneyland). Basing development decisions around such trivialities seems difficult to justify.

mplsjaromir
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1099
Joined: June 1st, 2012, 8:03 am
Location: Sommerset Knolls

Re: What will it take to develop DTE?

Postby mplsjaromir » October 11th, 2012, 6:52 am

helsinki wrote:
Perhaps, although I have never understood this. Why must 80,000 people park within walking distance of the stadium? Why can't there be remote parking lots with free shuttle buses (as is practiced at innumerable locations, for instance at Disneyland). Basing development decisions around such trivialities seems difficult to justify.
The FTA during the Bush administration ended the ability for transit operators to directly operate shuttles for special events. Transit agencies cannot provide a shuttle that would "break even", they do allow for subsidized "losing" shuttles, i.e. MN State Fair shuttles. Transit agencies can either spend their limited funds to provide shuttles to an event or focus on core services.

Why the free market has not met the demand for shuttles to the games? Your guess is as good as mine.

Thanks Ma Peters.

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/s ... ily25.html

helsinki
Landmark Center
Posts: 298
Joined: October 9th, 2012, 2:01 am

Re: What will it take to develop DTE?

Postby helsinki » October 11th, 2012, 9:15 am

mplsjaromir wrote:
helsinki wrote:
Perhaps, although I have never understood this. Why must 80,000 people park within walking distance of the stadium? Why can't there be remote parking lots with free shuttle buses (as is practiced at innumerable locations, for instance at Disneyland). Basing development decisions around such trivialities seems difficult to justify.
The FTA during the Bush administration ended the ability for transit operators to directly operate shuttles for special events. Transit agencies cannot provide a shuttle that would "break even", they do allow for subsidized "losing" shuttles, i.e. MN State Fair shuttles. Transit agencies can either spend their limited funds to provide shuttles to an event or focus on core services.

Why the free market has not met the demand for shuttles to the games? Your guess is as good as mine.

Thanks Ma Peters.

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/s ... ily25.html


Well that's silly. I'm sure the transportation politics surrounding that decision were banal, went unnoticed, were made by people greatly removed from the effects of the decision, and had huge consequences, as is usually the case.

Still, shuttles need not be provided by Metro Tranist. Ideally, the service would be provided by the Vikings themselves (most ideally, from discretely placed multi-level parking structures [in a dream world, underground], owned and operated by the team also). As a public entity masquerading as a capitalist enterprise, of course, the team would behave rationally in this situation (socialize costs and privatize profits) and would shift any transportation burden onto Metro Transit.

I apologize for the negative tone of this post (and for the drift off topic from DTE), but it is frustrating that (public) discussions regarding parking in the neighborhood surrounding the stadium have not been more creative, especially given the gigantic leverage the state has as primary financier.


Return to “Minneapolis - Downtown”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests