Downtown Minneapolis Office Market

[John]

I'm so glad we didn't end up getting that. It looks bulky and kind of jarring.

When it was announced , I saw a model of it. It wasn't as bulky as you might think. The facade transitioned from more of a Kasota stone clad base to almost all reflective glass as the form became octaganol at the top. The building's upper levels would have the illusion of being almost transparent under certain sunlight conditions. It would have created an almost ghostly silhoutte. It would have been spectacular. At the time , Cesar Pelli was very interested in using materials to compose a building's facade that would create a painterly feeling. He was a true artist/architect.

[nordeast homer]

Got to meet him once, he was very proud of the finished product (as he should be). Basically Cleveland got the initial version of the building and we got a knockoff of Rockafeller Center to go with our knockoff of the Pan Am building.

Now if we could only get a knockoff of the Freedom Tower...

[Avian]

Yes, my how things have changed! "Tied for the 11th-tallest in the world." I agree about the bulkiness. The Wells Fargo tower is much better, I think.

I also have to reinforce what retiredbanker had to say. Pelli's work on the original Norwest Tower is a good illustration.

I helped work on the Humphrey Terminal for MAC, the reconstruction of 35W/Crosstown for MNDOT/SRF Consulting, Three Rivers Energy HQ in Maple Grove, the ill-fated Nicollet, and dozens of other projects here and in Singapore, Dubai, Jeddah and Luanda. I had smaller, superficial roles in some and larger roles in others.

It's difficult to convey the scale of complexities involved in some of these projects although some architects on this forum can certainly relate! It took me six months of solid work just to create the vast 3D model of the 35W reconstruction for SRF Consulting (who did the engineering work). I was constantly in communication with designers who, in some cases, had to tweak an alignment or slope by mere inches along the 3.5-mile stretch of highway. Hundreds of decisions had to be made based on the sight lines derived from the model on where to place signage, lighting, barricades and dozens of other elements. Just imagine the scale of work needed just for a 30-story building, where someone has to make decisions on everything from door hinges to the just the right transparency of windows. Calculations involving air flow, solar radiation, insulation, structural safety, etc. The list can seem endless.

Then throw into that mix a developer who must juggle economics, financing, tenants, bureaucracies, NIMBY's, media, confidentialities, competitiveness, and the astrological alignment of Pluto and you've got one big job. A project can stall at any point, so it's really useless to complain about "this developer doesn't get it" or "that investor got it wrong." In some cases it's a small miracle that a building gets built at all.

Imagine the work that went into the original Norwest Tower design. And it all got sidetracked. It wasn't just a pretty picture of a building. It was almost entirely designed (structural, electrical and mechanicals included) before it was even unveiled. I'm not surprised Pelli re-used the design in Cleveland. It would have been way too expensive to just throw away all that work.

Maybe retiredbanker can be more accurate, but I'd guess more than half of the major projects planned in every city never get built or are drastically altered.

[Nathan]

I'm so glad we didn't end up getting that. It looks bulky and kind of jarring.

The "Key Tower" as it turned out in Cleveland is actually pretty lovely...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jphenney/7 ... otostream/

[John]

I'm so glad we didn't end up getting that. It looks bulky and kind of jarring.

The "Key Tower" as it turned out in Cleveland is actually pretty lovely...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jphenney/7 ... otostream/

I'm from Cleveland and visit their often. Key Tower is beautiful. The spire is stainless steel and looks lovely lit up at night. It's across from the Terminal Tower on Public Square which is a classic 1920's skyscraper. Their spires have a very distinct silhouette on the skyline.

[Minneboy]

Cool article. Though I very much wish it had stayed at 950 feet, instead of being "respectful" to the IDS, I think the building that was built actually looks better than that design. Maybe just because I see it every day. I do wish the observation deck had survived the cut, though. Its something Minneapolis sorely needs, (the Foshay doesn't really count) and I desperately hope any future supertall includes one.

Also, that article was written by one R.T. Rybak. Cool.

The building we got at 950 feet would have been pretty cool.

[Minneboy]

Cool article. Though I very much wish it had stayed at 950 feet, instead of being "respectful" to the IDS, I think the building that was built actually looks better than that design. Maybe just because I see it every day. I do wish the observation deck had survived the cut, though. Its something Minneapolis sorely needs, (the Foshay doesn't really count) and I desperately hope any future supertall includes one.

Also, that article was written by one R.T. Rybak. Cool.

I like what we got but it would have been better at 950 feet tall.

[Minneboy]

wow I'm tired

[mullen]

i always liked that original norwest center. just an in your face skyscraper. thanks for posting that old newspaper article. our loss is cleveland's gain. i remember the art institute had an exhibition of the designs for norwest center back then.

[mnmike]

This is way off topic now, but...

People always say the original Norwest tower got built as the Key tower in Cleveland, but if you look at it, the two designs are quite a bit different. I guess you could say a modified version of Pelli's original Norwest design got built there, he designed a quite a few similar buildings during that time, including the BOA tower in Charlotte...I never actually really noticed they are quite different until now. Anyway, the one that did get built here is widely regarded as one of his best buildings.

Got to meet him once, he was very proud of the finished product (as he should be). Basically Cleveland got the initial version of the building and we got a knockoff of Rockafeller Center to go with our knockoff of the Pan Am building.

Now if we could only get a knockoff of the Freedom Tower...

Seriously? The negativity here is incredible. Most architects and critics don't consider either of these buildings "knockoffs", but actually some of the best examples of those well known architects work. Jeez.


AAAANyway, how bout that office market?

[nordeast homer]

^^^Sorry, forgot to press my sarcasm button when I wrote that. Completely meant tongue-in-cheek. Of course these are great buildings that are well known across the country and respected in the architectural community.

Office market, new buildings, blah, blah, blah.

[mnmike]

Ah yes, I thought it might have been. In that case, I like the comment!

[uptown067]

Since we're on this (off) topic, what the overall cleveland skyline lacks is building density. From a distance, it looks like just a couple of random buildings, somewhat near each other. Conversely, here in mpls, we have a very nice dense skyline which looks like a real city.

My point, is that had they gone through with the original, taller Norwest design, we likely wouldn't have several of the other buildings filling in our skyline. Resulting in something more disjointed and disconnected. I would take two 40 story buildings over one 80 story any day.

[MS3]

I don't totally agree with that. Take charlotte for example. When Bank of America was completed in 92, it was followed by several towers over 600 ft. Their skyline is impressive to me and full for a city in the population realm of cleveland. Anyway, does anyone know the latest info on what the class A office vacancy rate is in Minneapolis?

[min-chi-cbus]

As a current Cleveland resident, I can assure you that downtown Cleveland is a bit more dense than you may think. But instead of 20-50 story buildings filling in the gaps there are 10-20 story Art Deco buildings (and older). Unlike Minneapolis though, Cleveland does not have skyways and there is not a propensity to bunch all of the towers next to eachother like you'll see in Minneapolis. It's fairly well dispersed, but it's also inter-connected by very old (and very beautiful) mid-rises.

It's definitely underrated, but Minneapolis is more impressive fairly hands-down.

[min-chi-cbus]

I don't totally agree with that. Take charlotte for example. When Bank of America was completed in 92, it was followed by several towers over 600 ft. Their skyline is impressive to me and full for a city in the population realm of cleveland. Anyway, does anyone know the latest info on what the class A office vacancy rate is in Minneapolis?

Without looking it up I believe it's between 10% and 11%.

[Unity77]

I don't totally agree with that. Take charlotte for example. When Bank of America was completed in 92, it was followed by several towers over 600 ft. Their skyline is impressive to me and full for a city in the population realm of cleveland. Anyway, does anyone know the latest info on what the class A office vacancy rate is in Minneapolis?

Huh? Charlotte has Bank of America, which is over 800ft, 1 tower over 700ft, 2 towers over 600ft, and only 2 over 500ft. I was just there not that long ago and IMO, the city's skyline is somewhat underwhelming for a city / metro its size (775,000+ / 2.3 million).

[FISHMANPET]

I don't totally agree with that. Take charlotte for example. When Bank of America was completed in 92, it was followed by several towers over 600 ft. Their skyline is impressive to me and full for a city in the population realm of cleveland. Anyway, does anyone know the latest info on what the class A office vacancy rate is in Minneapolis?

I think the point uptown067 is making (or at least I hope it's the point being made) was that if the Norwest center was bigger, there wouldn't have been enough demand for some of the other buildings to be built. If Charlotte got new towers after their Bank of America tower, it's because there was demand for that office space.

[Wedgeguy]

I don't totally agree with that. Take charlotte for example. When Bank of America was completed in 92, it was followed by several towers over 600 ft. Their skyline is impressive to me and full for a city in the population realm of cleveland. Anyway, does anyone know the latest info on what the class A office vacancy rate is in Minneapolis?

I think the point uptown067 is making (or at least I hope it's the point being made) was that if the Norwest center was bigger, there wouldn't have been enough demand for some of the other buildings to be built. If Charlotte got new towers after their Bank of America tower, it's because there was demand for that office space.

I remember the bank buying boom that went on during that time that made it possible for those towers to get build. You have Bank of American, Wachovia as your main building and employment centers. Ego's built those buildings, the owners of the banks decided to spend the money to have the cachet to say they were the banking center for the south. Well Wachovia went bankrupt in 2008-09 and was bought up by Wells Fargo. IF it had not been for Wachovia's bank buying of smaller competitors they would not have that tower right now. Their tower now has the Wells Fargo name on it.

I don't think that many of you younger folks realize the amount of architecture in this city that was designed by what we now call Starchitects. Compared to many other cities we have a large number of well designed buildings, by Phillip Johnson, Pelli, Jahn, IM Pei, Gerhy, and even the dreaded SOM.

[MNdible]

Any hope for storefronts on street level? I really hope we don't see walls along the sidewalk.

Looks like Minneapolis and Centerpoint are busy debating this very point right now.

CenterPoint originally said it needed all of the space for its lobby and offices and that it wouldn't set aside any space for retail. But after getting push-back from city planners, CenterPoint decided to move fewer of its existing employees to its new Twin Cities headquarters... The Houston-based utility agreed to allocate 5,000 square feet for retail, or about 17 percent of the total space, and 25 percent of the first floor fronting Nicollet Mall.