Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby VAStationDude » July 27th, 2016, 6:53 pm

I know you perceive a lack of vision resulted in blunders that can't be undone. I'm saying what happened has very minimal impacts now and that doubling down on an at grade station would not only be expensive and disruptive but would make tunneling less likely down the road.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby FISHMANPET » July 27th, 2016, 7:07 pm

I could buy that if any official had ever come even remotely close to talking about a tunnel.

These are all just more post hoc justifications. The bridge wasn't built in a way that precludes a center platform for because it was a conscious decision, it just was. Improvements to the current station aren't being ignored because of a plan to eventually tunnel through downtown, they're just being ignored. You can go on and on all day about specific reasons why I specific thing is that being done and they can all be 100% correct, but that doesn't account for the fact that we are where we are not because we chose to be, but because we ended up here on accident.

When the blue line was built, some platforms were built to only support 2 car trains, but the ones that would be hard to expand where built longer. Lake St Station could probably handle a 4 car train, and there's room on the bridge to expand. The cavern under the airport was built bigger than a 2 car train because it was easier to build it bigger all at once than expand it later. The power system on the blue line can handle 3 car trains at 5 minute frequencies. When building the green line, we laid the infrastructure for future stations in St Paul (which ended up being done with contingency, but could have been harder if we hadn't planned ahead).

These are all cases where designers took into account future growth and limited resources and did their best to not only not impede, but if possible enable future growth and change. Doing this allowed future development to be done in a cost effective manner. This station area specifically, and downtown transit in general, does not demonstrate this kind of forward thinking vision. This is what I'm complaining about, not that my specific pet infrastructure desires aren't being met right now.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby VAStationDude » July 27th, 2016, 7:34 pm

Missing out on an opportunity for very marginal and expensive improvements was a supes important consideration indicating a lack of vision and is totally comparable to limiting the system to two car trains. Got it. You're totes not unhinged.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby VikingFaninMaryland » July 27th, 2016, 8:01 pm

talindsay wrote:I think he's suggesting it wasn't their best efforts. And there's good reason to believe he's right.
There is a certain fairness to your point that I not only concede, but accept - - - with one proviso; and that is that those arches were ugly on the drawing board before being built. I would agree with a earlier post that it be repositioned - but not to another park where it could be an eyesore there, but to a landfill. At some point, its sheer survival over time will qualify it for being an artistic historical landmark. I'd also refashion the garage building to its front to bring it more in-line with the new cite-lines.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby FISHMANPET » July 27th, 2016, 8:01 pm

And I'm sure at the time 3 car trains seemed like an expensive and marginal improvement to future operations, and yet

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby FISHMANPET » July 27th, 2016, 8:03 pm

You know what would also be acceptable? The vision to look at the current situation and say "this is as good as its ever gonna get so who cares what we do" but as far as I know we can't even think that far ahead. Which for like the twentieth time goes back to my original point. These were not conscious informed decisions that got us to the point, we just stumbled here accidentally.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby VikingFaninMaryland » July 27th, 2016, 8:16 pm

MNdible wrote:And my point is that it's really arrogant and really easy to look back with 20/20 hindsight and bemoan that people didn't build what you wanted them to. Just because people didn't correctly predict the future doesn't mean that they didn't look to the future. That's the problem with actually building stuff -- as opposed to just talking, when stuff actually gets built, it becomes painfully obvious in the ways that your best efforts to anticipate future needs and future plans missed the mark.
In my post just above, I linked to the wrong comment. The comment cited here is the one I intended to cite. Apologies.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby VAStationDude » July 27th, 2016, 8:20 pm

Yeah increasing capacity by 50% with an increase to operating costs of about 10% is not in the same ballpark as spending money on an unnecessary center platform or platform shell that would have to be maintained and secured in addition to side platforms. Maybe that's why we ended up with longer than initially necessary tunnels and bridges but not mostly useless and mildly confusing duplicative platforms. Hiawatha Line planners, boosters and funders absolutely did a lot of work on each platform design. I seriously doubt they didn't consider hard the implications of the ultimate decision on this station. Did they miss the mark? Meh

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby MNdible » July 27th, 2016, 8:44 pm

In the future, all planners should please have the foresight and common courtesy to call FMP and let him know the options they are considering.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby mattaudio » July 27th, 2016, 9:24 pm

Call? Meet in person at Taco Bell.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby nBode » July 27th, 2016, 10:46 pm

Just let it go, Fishmanpet. Some people just get too lost in their own righteous ego to understand any other perspective but their own. I think the majority of us agree with you, or at least comprehend your point.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby VAStationDude » July 28th, 2016, 4:11 am

I understand his point just fine, thank you.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby RailBaronYarr » July 28th, 2016, 9:57 am

Okay so is everyone agreed that for all matters of transit and urban design soothsaying public officials and staff shall consult FMP, and for all matters of challenging the status quo we'll consult MNdible?

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby Record Machine » July 28th, 2016, 10:13 am

Let's just all agree that the both the bridge and faux Stone Arch """""""tribute""""""" thingy should be razed and start from there.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby MNdible » July 28th, 2016, 11:36 am

RailBaronYarr wrote:Okay so is everyone agreed that for all matters of transit and urban design soothsaying public officials and staff shall consult FMP, and for all matters of challenging the status quo we'll consult MNdible?
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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby FISHMANPET » July 28th, 2016, 11:45 am

BTW, I had a few minutes yesterday waiting so I stared intently at at the bridge pillars and the electrical box across the streets. The bridge pier on the "outbound" platform is too close to allow that track to move any amount, maybe a few inches but that's surely not worth it. The other bridge pillar, on the inbound side, gives plenty of space to move that track farther north to create room in the center. I'm not an expert on track turning geometry, but to my untrained eye it looks like that inbound track could swing farther north without needing to move the power substation.

So maybe I'm completely wrong about everything and this stuff was designed in such a way that it doesn't preclude a center platform in the unlikely event that ever becomes a possibility.

But the two bridges crossing Chicago Ave still reek of some combination of "we have no idea what we're doing" and "Vikings trying to wring us for as much money as possible."

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby mister.shoes » July 28th, 2016, 11:57 am

Slightly different bitch-point about this plaza. Every time I check the webcam I simply cannot get over how sparse and cold-looking it is. They couldn't have poured any more concrete for that plaza if they'd tried. It's just hardscape (and light poles!) as far as the eye can see. At the very least they could have used different colors of concrete so we don't have that stupid red wedge for the arches floating in the middle of a sea of gray. It's awful.
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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby mister.shoes » July 28th, 2016, 12:02 pm

Continuing previous point: I was at the Twins game last night and waited on the TFS plaza to board the Blue Line. We were squished in amongst trees and planters and nifty light poles and all sorts of interesting landscaping elements. I remember repeatedly checking the webcam when that got built and they spent an inordinate amount of time laying out elaborate patterns of colored concrete for the hard areas. They even took the time to elevate and install that little lawn above the "amphitheater" steps. This was the best we could do at the other end of downtown? Really? Acres of gray. Sweet.
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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby MNdible » July 28th, 2016, 12:04 pm

FMP, part of our misunderstanding apparently was that I always believed that the bridge didn't preclude the center platform, so we were talking a bit at cross purposes I think.

I'd have been happy to see the skyway connection eliminated. I think that it's inelegant and ridiculously out of scale as it pierces the stadium facade, and the VIP-exclusivity always struck me as icky. Hopefully it will look less weird if those Wilf blocks get redeveloped.

Anyway.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby MNdible » July 28th, 2016, 12:09 pm

I'm also very disappointed with the plaza, but I think it's been pretty clear this was going to end up sparse and barren since the plans went through city approval.

I'd always wondered how exactly they were going to handle the security checkpoints, and if the stadium tours were the answer (using cheap temporary tents backed up almost all of the way to Chicago), it's a total cop-out.


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