Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

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Archiapolis
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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby Archiapolis » August 3rd, 2016, 3:23 pm

seanrichardryan wrote:Why wasn't the security perimeter designed into the building/ plaza? Seems odd to use temporary structures for something that is required for anyone to actually use the building. All that chain link was noticeably absent in the flashy marketing flyovers.
'Hey, come on over and wander in though these giant doors'
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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby Mcgizz » August 3rd, 2016, 10:47 pm

I just got back home from the Chelsea - AC Milan game and wanted to talk about the bridge. Now before VAStationDude calls us all Europhile Hipsters for the fourth time I would like to mention that that place sold out and was 64,101 strong.

The bridge did a good job. I completely agree with Archiapolis and FISHMANPET that the bridge, station, and plaza could and should have been planned with more foresight than was done. But again, the bridge worked. The MSFA or Vikings, I don't know who and who can tell the difference anymore, closed the sidewalks on the northeast side of the platform crossing the tracks from foot traffic. You had to use the bridge. Even if you were not going to the game you had to walk over the bridge to say make a connection to the Green Line. The problem the bridge had was immediately after you descended the stairs on the stadium side they made everyone take a 270 degree turn to the left then circulating back underneath the bridge to TSA 2.0. It made the flow of foot traffic slow down and created a pinch point as people were posted up there selling stuff. Overall foot traffic moved well into the stadium after the mass amount of people got off the train. I think after a few more events the staff will work out any kinks and people will know how to get places since most of this is heard mentality.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby xandrex » August 4th, 2016, 12:31 am

Also went to the game and agree that the bridge worked given how they had it set up. But definitely some kinks. I didn't have to deal with light rail though - just walked down Fourth and Fifth until I got to Hennepin to catch a bus. Pretty smooth sailing.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby Didier » August 4th, 2016, 6:12 am

Also went to the game and couldn't imagine not having the bridge. Is there a reason the LRT can't speed up the 10-minute frequency for big events like that? That's going to be a huge deterrent to people using transit to games.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby mattaudio » August 4th, 2016, 8:06 am

Back before the Green Line shared the downtown alignment, they were able to queue a train or two on the westbound track, then there's a switch just west of Chicago Ave / DTE Station where they could get onto the right track to head southeast again. This probably screwed up the schedule slightly for westbound trains running from DTE west into downtown right as games let out, but it made it so they could move trains as fast as possible out of downtown.

I'm guessing the major Target Field Station upgrade / Interchange project's queuing tracks make it easier to store trains to deal with crush loads exiting a downtown stadium (compared to the initial twin stub-in design of the first TFS), but now things are complicated by having two services on the track. And the trains still need to get east across downtown before they can load up stadium users.

In the long run, we may want another track and/or platform at this station. I could imagine a center island platform that serves the day to day Blue/Green transfer better. But then at least a second eastbound track with a second outside platform to manage gameday crush loads. The ultimate setup would be P-T-T-P-T-T-P, especially once the two extensions are built.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby Silophant » August 4th, 2016, 8:44 am

As I understand it, the stoplights in downtown prevent trains from having more than 2.5min overall frequency (10min / 2 lines /2 directions). I'm not sure if that's an absolute limit that can't be increased without digging a tunnel, or if it's just a side effect of how the stoplights haven't been optimized whatsoever for LRT throughput.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby VikingFaninMaryland » August 4th, 2016, 8:57 am

Didier wrote:Also went to the game and couldn't imagine not having the bridge. Is there a reason the LRT can't speed up the 10-minute frequency for big events like that? That's going to be a huge deterrent to people using transit to games.
Its my understanding that gamedays, the goal will be to have the quick rotation of trains in as close as 2 minute intervals. I'm sure there will be a bit of trail and error associated with it. Along with the two concerts and the San Diego game, I strongly suspect that last nights soccer match benchmarked a current status - a stress test - on which later changes and refinements will be held.

I reviewed the Viking's "Aerial View" webcam a looked at the plaza - which is not quite complete. The bridge was heavily used and the plaza area was heavily populated. Aesthetics aside - and I agree that I wished it could have been made prettier (although designers were heavily constrained by the limitations of building on the roof of a pre-existing parking ramp) - that plaza achieved its purpose of being able to handle the movement of large volumes of people in a safe manner in a downtown urban setting in heavy traffic.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby FISHMANPET » August 4th, 2016, 9:19 am

The bridge was heavily used because people were forced to use the bridge. Thankfully when I transferred downtown they were still letting people cross the tracks at the north east corner, or else I would have had to fight someone! No way in hell would I go a quarter mile out of my way to cross 35 feet of tracks.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby Didier » August 4th, 2016, 9:22 am

The bridge is obviously designed for the event crowds, not the daytime circulation, no?

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby FISHMANPET » August 4th, 2016, 9:24 am

Well Mcgizz said they weren't letting anybody cross the tracks, can anyone confirm or deny that?

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby bubzki2 » August 4th, 2016, 10:00 am

Correct. No crossing of tracks. Lots and lots of fencing made for bottlenecks and confusion.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby Archiapolis » August 4th, 2016, 1:03 pm

Mcgizz wrote:I just got back home from the Chelsea - AC Milan game and wanted to talk about the bridge. Now before VAStationDude calls us all Europhile Hipsters for the fourth time I would like to mention that that place sold out and was 64,101 strong.

The bridge did a good job. I completely agree with Archiapolis and FISHMANPET that the bridge, station, and plaza could and should have been planned with more foresight than was done. But again, the bridge worked. The MSFA or Vikings, I don't know who and who can tell the difference anymore, closed the sidewalks on the northeast side of the platform crossing the tracks from foot traffic. You had to use the bridge. Even if you were not going to the game you had to walk over the bridge to say make a connection to the Green Line. The problem the bridge had was immediately after you descended the stairs on the stadium side they made everyone take a 270 degree turn to the left then circulating back underneath the bridge to TSA 2.0. It made the flow of foot traffic slow down and created a pinch point as people were posted up there selling stuff. Overall foot traffic moved well into the stadium after the mass amount of people got off the train. I think after a few more events the staff will work out any kinks and people will know how to get places since most of this is heard mentality.
Thanks for this. Well said. I have friends who went to the game and enjoyed themselves.

I'm sure the bridge is a capable solution to a problem as you say. I've never doubted that it will serve a purpose, I'm obviously very frustrated with THIS as an outcome knowing that "we" could have done better (while recognizing that it would have meant more money).

I know it's the first event and that they will have bugs to work out and hopefully it'll improve but it's frustrating/mind-boggling that this already feels like a retro-fit in terms of security/circulation and it is literally days old. SMDH.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby mister.shoes » August 5th, 2016, 10:06 am

You know what would help the crowding and crushing of people at the LRT station after games/events? A second platform on the north side of the stadium ;) :D /deadhorse
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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby MattW » August 5th, 2016, 10:38 am

mister.shoes wrote:You know what would help the crowding and crushing of people at the LRT station after games/events? A second platform on the north side of the stadium ;) :D /deadhorse
I get your point, but the last thing the light rail needs the other 360 days a year is more stops downtown.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby Silophant » August 5th, 2016, 11:25 am

It's theoretically possible to have a platform that's only used for events and that the train passes right through without stopping the rest of the time. Hopefully that starts happening at Target Field when the extension(s) open up.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby Archiapolis » August 5th, 2016, 11:46 am


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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby BBMplsMN » August 5th, 2016, 12:10 pm

mister.shoes wrote:You know what would help the crowding and crushing of people at the LRT station after games/events? A second platform on the north side of the stadium ;) :D /deadhorse
It might help with some crowding around the platform itself except no one at that platform would be able to get on an actual train since it would be full from people getting on at the current platform.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby mattaudio » August 5th, 2016, 2:53 pm

BBMplsMN wrote: It might help with some crowding around the platform itself except no one at that platform would be able to get on an actual train since it would be full from people getting on at the current platform.
Or... you pull two trains through at a time, one to the far platform and one to the near platform.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby BoredAgain » August 5th, 2016, 3:07 pm

mattaudio wrote:
BBMplsMN wrote: It might help with some crowding around the platform itself except no one at that platform would be able to get on an actual train since it would be full from people getting on at the current platform.
Or... you pull two trains through at a time, one to the far platform and one to the near platform.
I assume one platform would be for Blue line trains and the second would be for green line trains. You wouldn't need to pull two trains in at once, but it would split the crowd. Trains simply wouldn't stop at the "wrong" platform.

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Re: Stadium LRT Station, Ped Bridge & Plaza (MSFA block)

Postby mister.shoes » August 6th, 2016, 10:20 pm

^^ This. It would work exactly how Target Field works after games. Two queues, one for each color.
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