Nicollet Mall

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
acs
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1378
Joined: March 26th, 2014, 8:41 pm

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby acs » January 29th, 2016, 7:21 pm

Anondson wrote:Hit the pause button for a year.
But but, what about the Super Bowl?! :lol:

phop
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 166
Joined: May 28th, 2013, 8:58 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby phop » January 29th, 2016, 9:04 pm

As was mentioned before, table it until the streetcar work. I don't see much of a penalty to this option over the current choices.

User avatar
Tiller
Foshay Tower
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Joined: January 17th, 2015, 11:58 am

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby Tiller » January 29th, 2016, 9:30 pm

As almost everyone else has said, we should hit the pause button. I was really looking forward to a nicely remade Nicollet Mall. :(

VikingFaninMaryland
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 128
Joined: July 24th, 2015, 7:27 pm

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby VikingFaninMaryland » January 29th, 2016, 9:34 pm

This really is a monumental black eye. More than just rhetorically, heads should roll for this level of mismanagement because, given the funds will still be spent on a much reduced product, the difference between what was promised and what will happen pretty much amount to misrepresentation - an actual bait and switch.

To underestimate a bid by such a wide margin, and then to make adjustments that fundamentally undo the improvements that were the basis of the projects moving forward is minimally serious mismanagement.

They should pause long enough to develop either an true alternative or approach the State (or Country) to raise additional funds to do it right.

This should not be allowed to slide as just an "oh well".

EOst
Capella Tower
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Joined: March 19th, 2014, 8:05 pm
Location: North End, Saint Paul

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby EOst » January 29th, 2016, 9:42 pm

I don't care. They're keeping the upgraded pedestrian amenities, public art, and general design. Those are what excited me about this project, not concrete bricks.

acs
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1378
Joined: March 26th, 2014, 8:41 pm

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby acs » January 29th, 2016, 9:43 pm

phop wrote:As was mentioned before, table it until the streetcar work. I don't see much of a penalty to this option over the current choices.
Well, that may have been viable 6 months ago but not now after everything is ripped up and the businesses that make nicollet somewhat vibrant are struggling (and failing) to survive. They are getting hit with the triple whammy of a 2 year road construction, a $25 million property tax assessment, and rising rents from a supposedly "transformative" project. In fact, the only work that is already done on-time and under budget was the streetcar work, which would be good if the streetcar had any realistic hope of being built (spoiler alert guys, it doesn't).

acs
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1378
Joined: March 26th, 2014, 8:41 pm

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby acs » January 29th, 2016, 9:45 pm

EOst wrote:I don't care. They're keeping the upgraded pedestrian amenities, public art, and general design. Those are what excited me about this project, not concrete bricks.
We had all of those before they started this process. And brick pavers on the sidewalk to boot.

EOst
Capella Tower
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Joined: March 19th, 2014, 8:05 pm
Location: North End, Saint Paul

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby EOst » January 29th, 2016, 9:53 pm

acs wrote:We had all of those before they started this process. And brick pavers on the sidewalk to boot.
No we didn't. The greening from this project will be worth the headache alone, not to mention the tabled intersections. The pavers are the last thing I notice when I view the renderings.

Also, TBQH, the red pavers on the old Nicollet Mall were pretty ugly in the winter once the salt had started to cake on. I'll happily take a gray concrete over those any day.

acs
Wells Fargo Center
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby acs » January 29th, 2016, 10:01 pm

EOst wrote:
acs wrote:We had all of those before they started this process. And brick pavers on the sidewalk to boot.
No we didn't. The greening from this project will be worth the headache alone, not to mention the tabled intersections. The pavers are the last thing I notice when I view the renderings.

Also, TBQH, the red pavers on the old Nicollet Mall were pretty ugly in the winter once the salt had started to cake on. I'll happily take a gray concrete over those any day.

$50 million for greening? You're joking right? That's 2 commons parks. I'm sure it will look nice and green in 30 years when the new trees they plant grow out, which will be conveniently when this whole dog and pony show will start again. In the meantime, whatever mature trees were on the mall are woodchips now.

The pavers weren't the best thing about the project as originally intended, but this is just the latest in cutback after cutback from what we were promised was a transformative project. I wouldn't at all be surprised to see the low curbs and tabled intersection nixed next. Steve Kotke is a road guy and he's intent on bidding it out that way, despite the fact this is an art & landscaping project. Never should have trusted him.

EOst
Capella Tower
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Joined: March 19th, 2014, 8:05 pm
Location: North End, Saint Paul

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby EOst » January 29th, 2016, 10:32 pm

If that's how you want to look at it, man, I can't stop you. But this is a particularly silly part of the project to be up in arms about.

NEeaster
Metrodome
Posts: 51
Joined: January 4th, 2016, 6:42 pm

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby NEeaster » January 30th, 2016, 10:41 am

I totally agree with so many on here. The city really f'cked this up and if I were a property owner along Nicollet I'd be reall pissed off. The ideas and preliminary design were exciting - the crystal stairs,etc. The final design is something a local landscape archteciure firm, or sadly, even city works could have come up with. They wasted Corner's time and efforts and the money spent on hiring them. There isn't going to be anything special about it any more. Same concrete sidewalks as rest of the city, more trees (let's see if the city learns how to property water/prune them), new wierd light posts, badly designed bus shelters, movable chairs/tables (what is so exciting about that? - The mall had these years ago the the city removed then to prevent loitering/homeless people from being on the mall). No water features/fountains. Ugh.

helsinki
Landmark Center
Posts: 298
Joined: October 9th, 2012, 2:01 am

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby helsinki » January 30th, 2016, 12:25 pm

EOst wrote:If that's how you want to look at it, man, I can't stop you. But this is a particularly silly part of the project to be up in arms about.
Couldn't disagree more.

The design and materials used in paving the street are what send the crucial signals about pedestrianization. A curb-less street with pavers is intuitively a pedestrian one, in which vehicles are allowed. A street with concrete sidewalks and a curb down to a vehicular lane is intuitively an automotive one, in which pedestrians are allowed at the margins.

Most other design elements (trees aside) are largely decorative.

EOst
Capella Tower
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Joined: March 19th, 2014, 8:05 pm
Location: North End, Saint Paul

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby EOst » January 30th, 2016, 2:03 pm

I see no evidence that the design of the curb has changed at all. A street with (probably colored or stenciled) concrete sidewalks, angled curbs, and raised intersections sends the same signal to me as that same street with brick pavers.

nBode
Union Depot
Posts: 324
Joined: August 20th, 2013, 3:25 pm
Location: University of Minnesota

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby nBode » January 30th, 2016, 2:54 pm

Is there any way a sensible person would have the power to scrap the project? This is beginning to look like it's not going to be worth it at all. The money would be better spent on other public realm improvements.

Are we just going to be stuck wasting $50M on a slight improvement?

trigonalmayhem

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby trigonalmayhem » January 30th, 2016, 4:48 pm

It sure does suck being right most of the time.

MNdible
is great.
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby MNdible » January 30th, 2016, 5:14 pm

All of this hand-wringing over concrete pavers that probably wouldn't have worked well in our climate anyway?

helsinki
Landmark Center
Posts: 298
Joined: October 9th, 2012, 2:01 am

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby helsinki » January 31st, 2016, 2:21 pm

MNdible wrote:All of this hand-wringing over concrete pavers that probably wouldn't have worked well in our climate anyway?
There is a pedestrianized street in central Helsinki called 'Aleksanterinkatu' that is very similar to Nicollet Mall in many ways. It has pavers that work just fine in the very similar climate: http://www.tuulanarhinen.net/images_glo ... vigen4.jpg

VikingFaninMaryland
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 128
Joined: July 24th, 2015, 7:27 pm

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby VikingFaninMaryland » January 31st, 2016, 3:39 pm

helsinki wrote:
MNdible wrote:All of this hand-wringing over concrete pavers that probably wouldn't have worked well in our climate anyway?
There is a pedestrianized street in central Helsinki called 'Aleksanterinkatu' that is very similar to Nicollet Mall in many ways. It has pavers that work just fine in the very similar climate: http://www.tuulanarhinen.net/images_glo ... vigen4.jpg
If you spend any time in Northern Europe, including Germany, pavers are the standard.

NEeaster
Metrodome
Posts: 51
Joined: January 4th, 2016, 6:42 pm

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby NEeaster » January 31st, 2016, 4:43 pm

I agree - if the pavers are installed correctly- they can last. Look at the ones around the gateway markers near the Hennepin Avenue Bridge. While the pavers are probably the least exciting aspect of the redesign for me - what is really upsetting is cement sidewalks weren't what was promised/proposed in the design. It's another example of poor planning by the city resulting in significant cutbacks to an already underwhelming redesign. I can't believe that when the design was accepted, the city didn't have a rough estimate of the cost! Why accept a design when they don't know if they can afford it in the first place.

I really think they should go back to the drawing board and possibly wait until the streetcar goes forward. Why spend all this money when the streetscape is going to be ripped up and replaced in a few years?

I am busy writing the major, council president and my ward council member - Frey, to voice my utter disappointment in the city's handling of this.

Yet - the mayor can come up money to redo 3rd Avenue to make it bike friendly? Not that it isn't a nice project - but something that can wait. The city really needs to spend just as money making the city pedestrian friendly as bike friendly - pedestrian improvements in the rapidly built up North Loop and other neighborhoods are not keeping up with development.

MNdible
is great.
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Location: Minneapolis

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby MNdible » January 31st, 2016, 5:15 pm

I've tried to make this point before, but...

Helsinki's average January low temperature is 20.3 F. Minneapolis's is 8. And nowhere in Germany is anywhere near that cold. Minneapolis has a uniquely cold winter climate that requires aggressive salting and snow and ice removal equipment to keep sidewalks clear.

I could point to any number of locations around Minneapolis where concrete pavers have failed quickly and spectacularly. Main Street by St. Anthony Main is a recent example.

I'm sure that these were intended to be top of the line pavers, and perhaps they would have performed just fine. But the absence of pavers is not going to ruin this thing.

In any case, the existing Mall was in need of major maintenance work, and obviously now it's all ripped up, so any suggestion that we should put this on hold is a non-starter.


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