Nicollet Mall

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
David Greene
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby David Greene » February 11th, 2016, 5:33 pm

But the nice thing is that buses can GO AROUND other buses since there are two lanes in each direction.
This I can see as an advantage. Does that offset the additional distance to destinations on Nicollet and eastward? Maybe.

acs
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby acs » February 11th, 2016, 5:38 pm

I don't know about mainstreet, but Nicollet is meant to be downtown's shopping district, which yes, should be served by transit. But that doesn't mean transit should funneled through it to the detriment of it as an appealing place.
See, but what you're saying here is that transit is *detrimental* to a place, pretty much exactly opposite of what I believe.
Would you be ok with running transit over the stone arch bridge (ignoring width issues) or say through the heart of a major park? Those are two areas like Nicollet mall where people naturally want to congregate, recreate, and relax. Transit is not a universal positive to all places for all people.

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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby acs » February 11th, 2016, 5:49 pm

Or to put it another way, I'd liken it to keeping Portland ave open through the Commons park. You can traffic calm it, bike lane it, switch to hybrid buses, but in the end you're still sacrificing a public space for transportation utility. We're just very predisposed on this forum to be pro transit and hate cars so we don't see the two the same way.

David Greene
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby David Greene » February 11th, 2016, 6:01 pm

Would you be ok with running transit over the stone arch bridge
Yeah, actually I would. I was just thinking about that the other day.

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Nick
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby Nick » February 11th, 2016, 6:57 pm

I was one of the people screaming “transitpocalypse” back when they said they were moving the buses from Third to Hennepin…

…but now I actually kind of like it. I live in Whittier and work downtown. I can walk from my office on Third Street (part of why I didn’t like the buses moving) over to Hennepin in a few minutes and choose from the 4, 17, or 18 (whichever comes first). Traffic isn’t really that bad, and most of the delays are when buses prevent other buses from making lights (5th Street’s far-side bus stop can be infuriating). But the nice thing is that buses can GO AROUND other buses since there are two lanes in each direction.

I used to be pretty adamant about keeping buses on Nicollet. But now I think I could see them staying on Hennepin.
Yeah same. Hennepin is not ideal, location-wise, but at least the buses, you know, move.
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby xandrex » February 11th, 2016, 7:54 pm

But the nice thing is that buses can GO AROUND other buses since there are two lanes in each direction.
This I can see as an advantage. Does that offset the additional distance to destinations on Nicollet and eastward? Maybe.
I honestly don't know if it's worth it. And I certainly won't despise the return to Nicollet. But if they said they were going to stay, I think I'd shrug more than anything else.

But the benefits of Hennepin played out today several times: Buses stopped in front of my bus either idling because they were ahead of schedule or people were taking a long time to get on. My bus zipped into the other lane and went on its way.

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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby Silophant » February 11th, 2016, 8:07 pm

But the nice thing is that buses can GO AROUND other buses since there are two lanes in each direction.
This I can see as an advantage. Does that offset the additional distance to destinations on Nicollet and eastward? Maybe.
Honestly, I think it does. If the additional distance was a long ways, like even three blocks like the 3rd Ave detour was, that would be one thing. But the Hennepin detour moves the buses a single (increasingly long), or at worst, two, blocks off of Nicollet. It's not ideal, but it's really not that bad.

(Note that I live on Hennepin and am thus biased by the extreme convenience of having like eight different buses running down my street now.)
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acs
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby acs » February 11th, 2016, 8:25 pm

For all the anecdata here, several million fewer bus rides last year speaks volumes about the Hennepin detour.

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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby intercomnut » February 11th, 2016, 8:53 pm

For all the anecdata here, several million fewer bus rides last year speaks volumes about the Hennepin detour.
The argument could be made that those rides went away because of the detour to Marquette/2nd/3rd.

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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby Silophant » February 11th, 2016, 8:58 pm

Or it speaks volumes about transferring half a year's worth of 16/50 bus rides to the Green Line.

The Hennepin detour is an inconvenience, no doubt about that, but (anecdatally!) the detoured buses were very full during rush hours pre-detour, and remain very full during rush hours now. Unless you can show me ridership data showing a significant decrease on the detoured routes, I'm not buying that it's caused a significant drop in ridership.
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grant1simons2
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby grant1simons2 » February 11th, 2016, 8:59 pm

I'm still not sure if they're that closely related. I ride the 6 everyday and it's still majorly packed in the morning and evening. It takes about 10 minutes to get through downtown at off peak and 15-20 when it's rush hour. I feel like the drop in bus ridership has to do with more ridership on the trains and even gas prices going way down.

acs
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby acs » February 11th, 2016, 9:11 pm

Or it speaks volumes about transferring half a year's worth of 16/50 bus rides to the Green Line.

The Hennepin detour is an inconvenience, no doubt about that, but (anecdatally!) the detoured buses were very full during rush hours pre-detour, and remain very full during rush hours now. Unless you can show me ridership data showing a significant decrease on the detoured routes, I'm not buying that it's caused a significant drop in ridership.
What? the green line opened in 2014. We're talking about 2015 ridership. I'm confused with you half year of ridership comment. Buses lost 8.6% rides over 2014. MT cited the reason as BOTH transition from buses to LRT AND significant detours on Nicollet mall routes. Their words, not mine.

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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby Silophant » February 11th, 2016, 9:22 pm

The Green Line opened in June 2014, so the 2014 numbers still included half a year's worth of 16/50 rides that were transferred to the Green Line in 2015. Given how heavily used the University corridor is, I can easily see that half year being worth a few percentage points of all bus rides, but I'm totally willing to take MT's word for it that the detours caused significant ridership impacts as well.
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woofner
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby woofner » February 11th, 2016, 11:01 pm

But the nice thing is that buses can GO AROUND other buses since there are two lanes in each direction.
Which is something that could have been designed into the Nicollet Mall rebuild, if the transit function the street were at all considered in the design. The transit function, i.e. the most important non-psychological function of Nicollet Mall.
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby EOst » February 12th, 2016, 5:53 am

You couldn't do multiple lanes on Nicollet without drastically narrowing the sidewalks and pedestrian amenities. Nonstarter.

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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby amiller92 » February 12th, 2016, 9:49 am

See, but what you're saying here is that transit is *detrimental* to a place, pretty much exactly opposite of what I believe.
Of course it is. Would you rather stroll or sit at a cafe next to a bus or a train, or where there is none? Obviously, the latter.

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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby David Greene » February 12th, 2016, 10:17 am

That's not obvious to me at all.

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Dallas201
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby Dallas201 » February 12th, 2016, 11:35 am

at least taxis will be removed from Nicollet Mall so that is something. I assume that includes horse drawn carriages? I remember they used to clog up traffic way too much.

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woofner
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby woofner » February 12th, 2016, 1:08 pm

You couldn't do multiple lanes on Nicollet without drastically narrowing the sidewalks and pedestrian amenities. Nonstarter.
Yes you could. Nicollet is 80' wide. The current curving design reduces sidewalk widths to 15' in many places. A bus passing lane doesn't need to be more than 10' wide. Try math sometime.
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby mattaudio » February 12th, 2016, 1:18 pm

I had always thought it would make sense to alternate blocks with 2 lanes / 1 lane. You could have two lanes with two or more bus stops (similar to Marq 2) on one side for one block, then flip for the other block. If there's a block with other space constraints, you could do 1-1 and skip bus stops for that block. This would have the added benefit of allowing buses to GTFO if/when we have streetcars in the right of way.


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