Nicollet Mall

[min-chi-cbus]

I guess it's not exactly conducive to an internet discussion board to have unclear sarcasm.

I guess mattaudio (and I) thought that a $1 billion subway through Nicollet Avenue would not be an "icing-on-the-cake" project for the Nicollet Mall make-over. Seemed clear to me (but I am also bad with reading some peoples' sarcasm).

[Wedgeguy]

Why do we always talk about water features that break a year or two after they are installed. How many fountains do we have, walls of water, ETC that are no longer running. Why waste the money and find other art that will survive the winters without breaking and causing large bill problems!

[mulad]

I don't know if they're breaking, really -- most places just shut them off for half the year (or more). There is a vendor along Hiawatha Ave in south Minneapolis which runs one year-round. It becomes a huge mass of ice by the time spring rolls around.

[woofner]

I don't think that a transit tunnel under Nicollet would be very expensive endeavor if combined with a full reconstruction of the street. The only complication would be the LRT tracks at 5th St (and apparently constant bustitution is acceptable to Metro Transit, so that may not even be an issue). The other complication may be the relative shallowness of the bedrock in Downtown Minneapolis (which makes it ideal for deep bore tunneling), but that could also be a boon if the tunnel can be built directly on the Platteville limestone. Assuming north portal at 3rd and south portal Grant, with stations between 4th & 5th, 7th & 8th, and 11th & 12th, I don't think it would cost more than $100m, and that's including probably $20m for utility relocation that will have to be done if a streetcar is built anyway. The streetcar will certainly cost more than that if it crosses the river, and will be less of improvement in service for fewer riders.

But Portland doesn't have a transit tunnel so it's not on anyone's radar I guess.

[mattaudio]

^so true

[MNdible]

I agree that there's real long term value in developing a transit tunnel under Nicollet.

But I think your $100m number is mostly hokum and doesn't do much to improve the conversation.

[woofner]

No I've done detailed calculations and the cost works out to be exactly $100m.

[MNdible]

The odds are staggering.

[woofner]

If it costs $70m to build the 282k sq ft Nic on 5th 300' into the air, why would it cost significantly more to build a 20k sq ft (assuming a far larger floor plate than necessary) concrete structure on the ground? If it costs $15m to fully reconstruct the 1.2 mi of Nicollet between Lake & 40th, why would it cost significantly more to build less than one mile of busway here? If it costs $15m to build the Mall of America transit station (including $5m to cut a turn lane into an existing median), why would it cost significantly more to build each of these much smaller stations?

Obviously you can't just add these costs together, and that's not what I did for the round estimate, but given this context I think it's reasonable to assume the transit tunnel itself wouldn't go much over $100m.

[twincitizen]

"why would it cost significantly more..."

Well, first we'd have to study it for 5-10 years, hold 100 meetings, and pay a consulting firm to write a 1000 page environmental impact statement.

[MplsTodd]

by redisciple » June 19th, 2013, 10:00 am

I don't think that a transit tunnel under Nicollet would be very expensive endeavor if combined with a full reconstruction of the street. The only complication would be the LRT tracks at 5th St (and apparently constant bustitution is acceptable to Metro Transit, so that may not even be an issue). The other complication may be the relative shallowness of the bedrock in Downtown Minneapolis (which makes it ideal for deep bore tunneling), but that could also be a boon if the tunnel can be built directly on the Platteville limestone. Assuming north portal at 3rd and south portal Grant, with stations between 4th & 5th, 7th & 8th, and 11th & 12th, I don't think it would cost more than $100m, and that's including probably $20m for utility relocation that will have to be done if a streetcar is built anyway. The streetcar will certainly cost more than that if it crosses the river, and will be less of improvement in service for fewer riders.

But Portland doesn't have a transit tunnel so it's not on anyone's radar I guess.]


There was a time about 20-25 years ago when tunnels were being discussed.
I remember in the late 1980s there was discussion about having a tunnel through downtown Minneapolis for LRT. There was discussion about having a transit-ready platform built into the Norwest Center (now Wells Fargo Center), because the station was planned for the vicinity of 7th & Marquette.

I also recall John Derus running for Mayor (back in '93). He frequently mentioned how relatively easy it would be to tunnel under downtown, due to the characteristics of our underlying geologic foundation. This would contrast greatly to Seattle, which supposedly is built on granite. But, of course when Seattle had their tunnel built in the mid-late 1980s (close to 20 years before they even had LRT), the Feds were paying 80% or 90% of the total cost.

I also wish that more consideration was given to a tunnel, given the time savings as well as protection from wind and elements in the colder months.

[sushisimo]

"why would it cost significantly more..."

Well, first we'd have to study it for 5-10 years, hold 100 meetings, and pay a consulting firm to write a 1000 page environmental impact statement.

Ain't that the truth! And since it sounds like the city council voted to move forward with the Value Capture District for the streetcar line (also down Nicollet Mall) I'd hope it would marry with the Mall's revamp timeline and plans.

[woofner]

Can't stop this train, it's headed down the track, huh?

Guessing twincitizen's post was a joke actually. I would guess there wouldn't need to be an EIS for a transit tunnel, which would merely be an improvement of an existing facility. The Nicollet-Central streetcar won't need an EIS, and didn't even need an AA. Some public process would be a good idea, and having a more detailed public process related to the transit component would probably take longer than a public process with superficial consideration of transit (which is in fact the majority use of Nicollet Mall in terms of users). Some of this would depend on the funding source, which is I think the trickiest aspect of a transit tunnel, since I don't think there is a granting pot that it would fit cleanly into. Let's not forget though, that there should be a public process for the Nicollet Mall rebuild anyway, and that there is not yet funding secured for that even. So to talk about a timeline for the rebuild is to mix optimism with uncertainty.

[Aville_37]

From the city's website: http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/news/WCMS1P-110828

Not an architect/landscape architect, but have an avid interest in both. Briefly checked out all three designer's past projects. Not overwhelmingly impressed by what I saw other than Janmes Corner's work on the High Line in New York. I do like Snow's work, though. Thoughts?

[twincitizen]

http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups ... 112995.pdf

Subject: Contract Amendment – Nicollet Mall Redesign
Recommendation:
Authorize the proper City officials to execute an amendment to contract C-36627 with Peter Brown increasing the amount of the contract by $90,000 for a revised contract total of $139,000, extending the term of the contract to May 14, 2014, and modifying the expense reimbursement section to allow reimbursement of eligible expenses in accordance with City policy.

[Minneapolisite]

I'd be happy if there were better signage to keep (non-taxi driving) motorists off Nicollet Mall (happens all the time) and any signage welcoming cyclists to use it.

[John]

I'd be happy if there were better signage to keep (non-taxi driving) motorists off Nicollet Mall (happens all the time) and any signage welcoming cyclists to use it.

Non-taxi motorists mistakenly driving on Nicollet Mall has been a perpetual problem for the 35 years I've lived here. Not sure how to fix that issue. But I agree there should be more signage that identifies the mall as a bicycle-friendly street.

[Nick]

I've always thought it was legal for four different types of vehicles to drive on Nicollet Mall: Taxis, buses, bicycles, and minivans with out of state license plates.

[Nathan]

I've always thought it was legal for four different types of vehicles to drive on Nicollet Mall: Taxis, buses, bicycles, and minivans with out of state license plates.

Ha ha! Totally.
I once told a nice looking woman from Iowa that she was driving in a transit only area (from my bike, next to her)... only to get quite the earful. to which I nicely responded with an offer to help give her directions. she didn't like that either :/

[mattaudio]

Three finalists chosen for Nicollet Mall:
http://www.startribune.com/local/minnea ... 03331.html