Nicollet Mall

[Tyler]

I think we may have found the dunce.

[Chef]

As for the mall, pretty much any of these teams could've improved Nicollet's current state. Hopefully in 20 years it won't look dated like the current 90s pastiche.The Corner team will do what they can within their budget.

In some ways I think this comment points to part of the problem with our approach to the mall. We seem to be on a path to completely redesign it every generation. Most architecture and design seems to go through an evolution of perception. At first it is cool and new. Then after a few years the freshness of the new wears off and it then seems dated. It remains dated for a few decades until it becomes timeless and beloved. In 20 years the new mall will seem as dated as the current one. If Rybak et al. are such deep thinkers why can't they see this? I think it is obvious to anyone who pays attention to the evolution of style and taste.


The last redesign happened because everybody hated midcentury modernism in the '80s, but if the original mall still existed now it would probably soon be a candidate for the National Historic Register because midcentury modernism is now becoming much more respected. If we rebuild the mall every 20 years it will always look dated 50% of the time. At some point we need to create a good design, maintain it well and stick with it. Maybe we should rebuild the mall to its' original design.

[Jfuss]

And the winner is...
http://www.startribune.com/local/blogs/224404881.html

[Drizzay]

God. The comments on the Star Tribune story are almost exclusively either:

• What, they couldn't find a local firm to do this?

• If any state money goes to this project I will be mad!

It's almost like it's organized. Sometimes I think it might be.

Anyway, the guy who won was on MPR earlier today and pretty much stressed that the concepts were likely not at all what the final project would look like.

The (mostly) pompous and uniformed people that comment on the Strib website make me weap for the future. Perhaps this NYC firm is just better than those others that submitted a proposal.

These are the same people that bitched about the sod for Target Field coming from Colorado.

[Viktor Vaughn]

I'm really skeptical that Nicollet Mall needs to be redone at all. I viewed the presentation (on my computer, not at the Guthrie) and in every before and after picture I much preferred what is there now. Much of the renderings looked very drab, sanitized, and soulless. Some of the concepts were cool, but most of those could be integrated into the current design.

Nicollet Mall is probably the most effective public space in the entire state. It's one of the few streets with ample public seating; wide enough sidewalks to gather around enjoy street musicians, and you can sit at a sidewalk cafe without being subjected to loud traffic. This stretch of Nicollet attracts people with time to kill, whether an out-of-towner conventioneer, an office worker on lunch, shoppers resting their feet, or traveling groups of gutter punks taking in the town. It's not always pretty. It doesn't have the benefits of controlled access private property like a suburban mall or office park. Yet, the fact that it’s ostensibly open to all is the feature that gives the mall gravitational pull and makes it an authentic and interesting place to be.

I love the sculptures, the big boulders and the street planters. Before this talk of a redo, I hadn’t even realized the mall looked tired and worn, and didn’t even notice that ugly teal color until it was pointed out by people here. But it definitely needs work. I just don’t buy the argument that spending tens of millions is somehow a better deal than just repairing what’s needed to spruce it up and keep it nice.

I feel the same way about the Nicollet Mall redo as the Peavey Plaza replacement. Why not put the money into Library Park or pedestrianizing another downtown street? Why mess with the few effective public spaces we have?

[alleycat]

As a Wisconite turned Minnesotan I find this highly ironic. A man's name is Nicolet. Some dunce west of the Mississippi decides to add an l and start pronouncing the t. These happen to be the same people who pronounce New Prague and Mille Lacs with utter disregard for pronunciation norms.

Heh. I didn't think that through. I just meant, it's a design aimed at tourists. Midwestern tourists. No offense meant to Wisconsin or the great Nicolet.

I think we may have found the dunce. Jean Nicolet and Joseph Nicollet were different people that explored different regions more than 150 years apart.

Good to know. Pronunciation is still off by a mile. Two ls in French are pronounced with a y sound and the t is still silent. Anyways at least no one's being Minnesota passive aggressive.

[Minnekid]

I think it is fine as an update to the mall. But very unambitious like the other plans, it is the same thing as now. Like same busway in the middle, just take away the existing concrete, put a different material, and have some trees in gravel to have seating. No cool full pedestrian mall, nothing.

[talindsay]

Good to know. Pronunciation is still off by a mile. Two ls in French are pronounced with a y sound and the t is still silent. Anyways at least no one's being Minnesota passive aggressive.

You're right that pronunciation is off, but in this case the double ell is not a wye sound - it's very rare to hear a wye sound on double ell in French, that's primarily a Spanish pronunciation. In French the name Nicollet would be pronounced NEE-kohl-lay.

[mplsjaromir]

I think we may have found the dunce. Jean Nicolet and Joseph Nicollet were different people that explored different regions more than 150 years apart.

Just another example of how the public school system has failed. If people with a "good" GPA cannot differentiate seminal voyageurs, then obviously the system is beyond broken. This anecdote proves that fact.

[MNdible]

Just another example of how the public school system has failed. If people with a "good" GPA cannot differentiate seminal voyageurs, then obviously the system is beyond broken. This anecdote proves that fact.

Preach it, mon frère.

[nordeast homer]

How about we refer to it as the Nic and forget the pissing contest, (or join the homeless and their pissing contest in Peavey Plaza, your choice).

I really hope they lean on local voices to guide them on materials for this project and for installation, otherwise this project will be doomed. New York may get cold, but the climate is not nearly as hostile as here, or at least not for extended periods like we get.
I also hope the design is much different than what they have shown, because I didn't see anything that was eye catching or innovative. I like the idea of trying to create more seating areas, but there is nothing that I saw that makes a person want to be on the Mall versus using the skyway to get to their next destination.

[RailBaronYarr]

Preach it, mon frère.

You're a good guy, mon frère. That means “brother” in French. I don't know why I know that. I took four years of Spanish!

[MNdible]

You're a good guy, mon frère. That means “brother” in French. I don't know why I know that. I took four years of Spanish!

Maybe this means that there's hope for our education system after all?

Back on topic, the updated article from the Strib has a great slide show with historical photos of Nicollet Mall that's definitely worth scrolling through.

[John]

From the Strib article which is telling: “My concern was that it’s a very ambitious project, but not a very ambitious budget,” said Christopher Hume, architecture critic for the Toronto Star, who was a judge.

I think this is actually good news for those of us who don't feel it's necessary to radically alter the mall other than give it a good repaving. What will really help the mall most is to improve the built environment around it ( i.e more inviting street frontage with strong retail activity , a large iconic project on The Ritz block, renovate Peavey Plaza and restore the fountains, modify the Nicollet and 7th bus stop to reduce the loitering and criminal activity). I don't know, but for some reason the strong focus on this project and how it will magically transform Nicollet Mall feels misguided. It misses the mark.

[mullen]

the sidewalk pavers are a trainwreck, the fountains suck and the street furniture is underutilized and decrepit. lighting and signage is dated and bad. this architect wasn't saying an ambitious project was a bad thing.

i think you need to separate the peavey plaza and the nicollet mall projects. "a good repaving" won't make this the pedestrian centerpiece and it can be once again.

[MNdible]

My sense is that people continue to use the Mall and love it in spite of its glaring current deficiencies, which is good news for its future. A refreshed streetscape with better public space will only add to its current success.

I did hear a bit of Corner's interview on MPR, in which he said that they were going to:

1. Keep transit on the mall,
2. Add exclusive bike facilities, and
3. Widen the sidewalks.

Now that's the kind of magical design thinking we can all get behind!

[John]

Mullen, I agree 100% it needs to be upgraded and I like the idea of widening the sidewalks as stated above. However, I think their needs to be as much focus placed on improving retail activity along the mall, and redeveloping some of the undertilized or vacant properties which will increase the critical mass of people. The northern end in particular is as dead as a doornail.

Which comes to my thoughts on what needs to go onto the Ritz block. My feeling is something very very ambitious should be built here that will really bring in a large amount of people to live, work, and stay on Nicollet Mall. It needs to be on a much broader scope of activity and larger scale than Nic on Fifth or 222 Hennepin combined. This will be a key component in making the future Nicollet Mall successful.

[Anondson]

I would love it if the city offered incentives to make future development step far back from the street. Not the staggered stepping you see as buildings get taller, but to move back to provide some small amount of more open space for pedestrians.

I really was inspired by the mid street open space created by taking away bits of city center.

But something . . .

[mister.shoes]

I really was inspired by the mid street open space created by taking away bits of city center.

It's crazy how much that's sticking in my head. I loved that space—the improved bus stop, the food truck plaza, the removal of a chunk of the fortress...I can't shake that dream. Alas.

[Didier]

I tend to agree that this doesn't need to reinvent the wheel, it just needs to be updated and upgraded.

That all said, I'm in the boat that would prefer to have no buses or taxis on the mall. I wonder if there is any possibility of closing off certain parts of the mall, like 8th Street to Grant, or even just the blocks by Peavy Plaza. Minneapolis really needs space like that.