Nicollet Mall

[EOst]

What is so wrong with buses, especially the hybrids they run now? This no buses on the Mall call has always seemed a bit classist to me.

If Nicollet Mall is to be the retail center of the city we want to bring people there!

Mostly because there are so many that, combined with the ultra-low speed limit and the long stops at every cross street, it can take a very long time to get down the Mall.

I mean, today, I rode an 18 from the Central Library to Nicollet/Franklin and it took twenty minutes, a lot of which was because we kept getting stopped behind another bus waiting to get to the stop. Same story when I rode a 17 back; an absolute crawl the whole way (though not as long as the first ride). That's to say nothing of the taxis that are still allowed on Nicollet, which in my experience seem to go out of their way to get in the way of the buses.

And just generally, I think for the kind of uses that people envision for Nicollet (open-air restaurants, large crowds of shoppers, big communal gathering areas) there's a point where more vehicles can have a dampening effect. Of course we want more people on the Mall, but at the same time, we want the Mall to seem pleasant and pedestrian-focused. Hybrid buses help a lot (I've never noticed diesel fumes personally), but they aren't a panacea either.

In fact, just save the money, skip the streetcar, and have the buses mingle with pedestrians.

This idea would have so many operational (not to mention liability) issues.

[grant1simons2]

I'm going to make a map of where I think the stations should be and post it to the Streetcar thread

[Orbi]

If there is one design element they could incorporate that would make the street feel very pedestrian friendly, in my opinion it would be to eliminate curbs. The preliminary renderings suggest that they already intend to denote different street functions through the use of different surface materials. Given this, it's not really much of a leap to get rid of the grade differential. As long as there is proper storm water drainage, of course (nobody likes walking through puddles).

Anyone who has walked on such a street will testify to the difference it makes for the pedestrian: it really is night and day.

I totally agree. Last time I was in Denver I remember thinking how much I liked the lack of curbs on their mall and how it really improved the pedestrian experience.

[exiled_antipodean]

the Bourke St mall in Melbourne is a good example of curbless pedestrian mall with streetcars. Works well there.

[woofner]

Mostly because there are so many that, combined with the ultra-low speed limit and the long stops at every cross street, it can take a very long time to get down the Mall.

I mean, today, I rode an 18 from the Central Library to Nicollet/Franklin and it took twenty minutes, a lot of which was because we kept getting stopped behind another bus waiting to get to the stop. Same story when I rode a 17 back; an absolute crawl the whole way (though not as long as the first ride). That's to say nothing of the taxis that are still allowed on Nicollet, which in my experience seem to go out of their way to get in the way of the buses.

Why is your solution to get rid of the buses? We're spending $30m+ to rebuild nicollet, so wouldn't that be a good opportunity to include features that mitigate the undeniable operations issues?

[EOst]

Some combination of fewer buses/more headway/level boarding/prepayment would make a huge difference, and thankfully a lot of that's going to be done between the reconstruction and the streetcar.

[twincitizen]

http://finance-commerce.com/2014/08/cit ... n-manager/

[grant1simons2]

http://finance-commerce.com/2014/09/thr ... -makeover/

3 finalists picked *locked*

[seanrichardryan]

Wah wah...

http://www.journalmpls.com/news-feed/gl ... l-redesign

[John]

Wah wah...

http://www.journalmpls.com/news-feed/gl ... l-redesign

I live on Nicollet Mall and the staircases received a very cool reception from almost everyone who attended the meeting on the renovation at my complex. My feedback was they would work better with retail built underneath them which was proposed initially. Unfortunately, that was cut out due to budget issues. The ice rink was another aspect people disliked. If they would just renovate Peavey Plaza there is actually space to create a functional one. And lets not even get into those outdoor hand warmers!! Mr Frank got an earful about them

[UrsusUrbanicus]

I wasn't at the meeting -- would it be correct to assume that the retail spaces originally proposed for under the stairways would have been significantly smaller than are traditionally seen? And wouldn't such a space, with its lesser total cost, have been just the prescription for the challenges that bricks-and-mortar retailers -- particularly specialty ones -- face in the online age? I'm afraid they dropped something that could have been revolutionary in terms of revitalizing the street life of our cities...

[MplsSteve]

I'm glad they got rid of them. They would have cluttered up that intersection. Conceptually it was an interesting idea, but it's a bit naive to believe that putting a couple of exterior staircases down from the skyway is going to draw a lot of people from the skyway to street level.

[twincitizen]

I agree. It was a really cool concept, but I never truly believed that it could be squeezed within the right-of-way. The remaining sidewalks adjacent to the buildings would have been painfully narrow. There are other ways to connect the skyways to the public realm. IDS in particular is already very well connected in the Crystal Court. If we're looking to make the connections between street and skyway more obvious, I'd start with signage, and look beyond IDS to buildings that actually struggle with this connection. The renovation of City Center would be an obvious opportunity to really open up that block.

[TommyT]

And what happened to the glass elevator idea? I think staircases or even escalators would be more efficient, but there was something about the elevator thing that I found interesting and would add a futuristic look to Nicollet Mall/Mile.

[grant1simons2]

“It’s not like we’re completely cutting it because we're over budget. Whatever alternative is chosen won’t be any less fancy; it’s still going to be awesome,”

Jacob Frey is getting me excited. With both the Nicollet block and being involved in this project making sure everything is still going to be "awesome"

[twincitizen]

I, too, appreciate his enthusiasm and boosterism, but some of his quotes are real groaners. "Sexiest parcel" comes to mind. I bet this dude has never written a political speech in his life. He just shoots from the hip all day long...and will probably wind up shooting himself in the face eventually. I don't want that to happen, but it seems kind of inevitable.

[mullen]

I find councilmember Frey amusing. his enthusiasm is refreshing.

the whole idea of the staircase was a simple, elegant way to get from skyway to street and to have place for people to sit, eat their lunches, hangout, whatever. why would businesses be against that. our skyway system is cumbersome and hard to navigate even for locals, let alone out-of-towners. the staircase in times square, while a relatively new amenity, has become an iconic part of the urban fabric. people enjoy sitting up on the stairs and people watching. isn't this what we want from our pedestrian mall? the orignal plan from the late 80's mall rehab was to have glass enclosed staircase towers, but they were nixed for budget reason.

i guess i could see some sort of escalator, i've seen these in other cities. still this would serve as a way to move people and wouldn't have any other benefit that I can see. in manchester england they have an outdoor esclator that takes u from the pedestrian mall up to the second level of a crystal court type of space with restaurants. it's nothing pretty but serves its purpose.

i hope this won't be dumbed down to a street/sidewalk repaving with some trees. this street needs to be an iconic place. (i'd take all buses and taxis off the mall to but that's considered sacrilege for some reason) every european big city has a purely pedestrian/bike shopping/restaurant street.

[min-chi-cbus]

I, too, appreciate his enthusiasm and boosterism, but some of his quotes are real groaners. "Sexiest parcel" comes to mind. I bet this dude has never written a political speech in his life. He just shoots from the hip all day long...and will probably wind up shooting himself in the face eventually. I don't want that to happen, but it seems kind of inevitable.

Maybe he knows how to speak to his diverse array of registered voters? Kind of like when I'm at the doctor's office and speaking with a doctor (typically younger, like around my age) and he'll eventually refer to me as "pal", "dude", "man", etc. as we build a rapport. Sometimes it bothers me when people step outside their roles just to (presumably) talk at my level, but I understand it as a show of friendliness and humility more than something that makes them look dumb or classless. My take, anyways.

[xandrex]

I, too, appreciate his enthusiasm and boosterism, but some of his quotes are real groaners. "Sexiest parcel" comes to mind. I bet this dude has never written a political speech in his life. He just shoots from the hip all day long...and will probably wind up shooting himself in the face eventually. I don't want that to happen, but it seems kind of inevitable.

Wasn't he a lawyer before becoming a councilmember? I'm sure he knows exactly what he's saying. He lives in and represents pretty much the most exciting and most urban parts of the state. Boosterism and perhaps a bit of flair I think helps him. I'm in his ward and he seems so much more accessible and interesting than Hofstede.

He reminds me a lot of a younger version of Rybak. A lot of enthusiasm. I actually wouldn't be surprised if he runs for mayor eventually.

[MplsSteve]

I'm in his ward and he seems so much more accessible and interesting than Hofstede.

I agree, and he's actually quite responsive to the more mundane issues of his constituency.