Nicollet Mall

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
grant1simons2
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby grant1simons2 » March 26th, 2015, 9:12 pm

The roads and sidewalks are getting very marked up I've noticed. I wish I know what some of it meant lol

David Greene
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby David Greene » March 26th, 2015, 9:49 pm

Sorry for being all old man. But the characterization of "creative adaptation" into a "playground of sorts" doesn't capture the way it interacts with other uses, which is generally negative.
Amen. I'd be happy to see a skate park on the mall. I've been nearly hit by skateboarders several times. I enjoy the acrobatics but not when it puts people in danger and disrespects common areas. Keep it where it's fun AND safe.

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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby David Greene » March 26th, 2015, 9:52 pm

Overall, I think the benefits skateboarding provides to the individual--cultural exposure, creativity, street smarts, urban exploration, dealing with/standing up to authority, physical activity, sense of community--probably outweigh the nuisance aspect that many perceive it to be.
But what of damage to public spaces that *other* people enjoy? That authority being stood up to is sometimes necessary to keep public spaces accessible to all.

None of the benefits you mention require someone to be on a board.

twincitizen
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby twincitizen » April 2nd, 2015, 7:52 am

This Strib piece seemingly went unnoticed until Eric Roper tweeted it this morning: http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/297812581.html

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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby topher hoefer » April 2nd, 2015, 8:04 am

Walking down Nicollet last night around 5:30 I was surprised to see how many people were hanging out, up to no good. Hotboxing the enclosed bus stop in front of Xcel, teenage boys harassing a woman, grown men yelling profanities at each other, two women getting into a screaming match in front of City Center... I'm beginning to wonder if throwing all this money at a new mall is just putting lipstick on a pig. We need to do it, as the current infrastructure is crumbling, but are we going to end up with a showplace street that nobody wants to hang out on? They've talked about the additional patrols and the possibility of a specialized DID team for the mall, but how do you police rude and tacky behavior?

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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby Gman12 » April 2nd, 2015, 8:12 am

Walking down Nicollet last night around 5:30 I was surprised to see how many people were hanging out, up to no good. Hotboxing the enclosed bus stop in front of Xcel, teenage boys harassing a woman, grown men yelling profanities at each other, two women getting into a screaming match in front of City Center... I'm beginning to wonder if throwing all this money at a new mall is just putting lipstick on a pig. We need to do it, as the current infrastructure is crumbling, but are we going to end up with a showplace street that nobody wants to hang out on? They've talked about the additional patrols and the possibility of a specialized DID team for the mall, but how do you police rude and tacky behavior?
It shouldn't surprise you, it's a daily occurance. I get offered drugs, smoke blown at me, yelled at, or asked for money everyday.

spearson
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby spearson » April 2nd, 2015, 8:36 am

Two things, a) that's city life for you, and b)that is literal proof of the soul sucking nature of a blank wall on the sidewalk. From City Center to 4th Street, there is crap for a sidewalk presence from any building, and it shows.

On the positive side, development is pushing down that direction so some of that shadiness will get pushed out over time. The amount of people that used to hang out on the corner when the ramp was there was ridiculous (4th and Nic), I'm hoping this area will completely change once the Nicollet, Powers and Ritz blocks are finished.

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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby trigonalmayhem » April 2nd, 2015, 10:17 am

I'd also like to add that rampant economic disparities and income inequality plays a role in some of that uncouth behavior. It's true that you'll always have some troublemakers but you'll have a lot more of them with chips on their shoulders when they continually get the shit end of the stick and have to be around people with far better opportunities in life. I feel like that class resentment is also part of why so many people hate new residential development too.

UrsusUrbanicus
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby UrsusUrbanicus » April 2nd, 2015, 12:35 pm

If we truly want a vibrant, welcoming downtown, it's also important to ensure that we maintain a sharp distinction between "hanging out to cause trouble" and just "hanging out". Going after people who fall into the latter category makes the area feel more like a prison camp than a place where one goes to experience a wealth of sights and sounds. We'd end up sending the message that people are only welcome downtown if they appear to be actively on their way to spend money. And given the racial and socioeconomic dynamics still in play in this country, this has the potential to play out in the form of profiling and discrimination. Harassing people is a crime; "making Betty Burnsville vaguely uncomfortable" is not.

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Munch'n
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby Munch'n » April 2nd, 2015, 12:39 pm

Two things, a) that's city life for you,
I have never experienced that in Chicago.
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FISHMANPET
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby FISHMANPET » April 2nd, 2015, 1:24 pm

I'm sure this is going to come off sounding racist in some way, which means I either don't have the language to properly describe it or I just am racist so anyway here goes.

In our lives we've been around people and those people have done things and we've noticed that. And over time you can use that behavior to give a general prediction of what things those people will do in the future (future here means the next moment, not tomorrow or next year or anything like that). I know, for example, that someone who is running towards me with earbuds in and ridiculous skin tight clothing, they're probably jogging, not charging at me. So while an instinctual response to someone charging at you could be to run away or get ready to fight them, with the cultural knowledge of what a jogger does, I can feel fairly confident that this person is just going to run right past me. They could run to me, pull out a knife, and stab me, but that's not statiscally very likely so I'm not really worried about it.

So there's all sorts of behavior like this that we're able to recognize because of our past experiences. Some people have more or less of those experiences. But I can use it to avoid unpleasant things, like those fundraisers on the U campus that want to know if you have a minute for <issue of the hour> or the people wandering around light rail stations or bus stops asking for 50 cents for bus fare, etc etc. And maybe there are things I haven't seen in person, but I've seen in the media [and in relation to racial disparities this can itself be problematic if the common media portrayal is a stereotype]. If I'm at a bank and someone pulls a gun I'm likely to assume they're robbing the bank or something.

But there are those things for which you have just no frame of reference to predict future behavior. Once waiting for a bus at Chicago & Franklin, a minivan drove down Chicago, with the passenger side facing me. The passenger side sliding door was open, and two teenagerish looking people were sitting there with their legs hanging out the side of the van. It was bizarre to me, and I don't know what would possess anyone to think that was a reasonable way to ride down the street. Never having seen such behavior before, I had to fall back to what I'd seen in media. Even though I didn't think either event was very likely, I did think in that moment that there was a non-zero chance of an abduction or drive by shooting or something. Maybe this is just a thing that's normal in some cultural group, but I'd never seen it before and it made me uncomfortable.

Another time I had to sit next to someone on a bus leaving the U as it crossed the Washington Ave Bridge (note, this was years ago, well before Houle jumped off the bridge, and well after anyone else had) and and as we went across the bridge he said "You know I hear a lot of people jump off that bridge." Totally not appropriate bus stranger small talk. If he thinks that's appropriate, what else is he going to do? I didn't think he would do anything, but as a nervous introvert I was worried about what else he would say to me and force me to respond in some way.

And yet another bus related experience, a group of what I assume were high schoolers got on the 6 in Dinkytown, and sat down at the back of the bus, and had a conversation so loud it would be generous to merely call it yelling. They weren't arguing per se, at least no more than a group of people casually discussing something, but they were certainly yelling and swearing enough to make it feel like they were fighting. And a yelling and screaming fight doesn't always stay to yelling and screaming. I was sitting right behind the rear door so I had these 5 teenagers screaming curse words 10 feet behind me, and it stressed me out like you wouldn't believe. I felt the need to remain vigilant in case it did break out into some fight, to make sure that I didn't get accidentally caught up in whatever would happen, or worse be the target of some kind of random violence merely because I was the closest person to them [and this is also why I didn't yell at them to shut the hell up or get the hell off the bus].

So in each of these situations I'm sure the other party thought their behavior was in some way culturally appropriate, but I did not. Is one of us right and other one wrong? I certainly don't have the vocabulary to enter into that debate. But certainly since I had my own perception in each of these situations, I certainly felt some negative feeling, be it mere confusion, a worry, or an actual fear of my own personal safety.

I'm sure there is some point on the spectrum of behaviors where a cultural reaction goes from right to wrong. Certainly "I see a black person so I'm scared" is wrong, and also certainly "someone has a gun pointed at me and is shooting so I'm scared" is right, but every person's dividing line between scared and not scared is going to be different, and maybe somewhere in there is a universally "correct" dividing line between scary and not scary behavior.

So I think my point, and particularly how it relates to the mall, is we certainly don't have in this country a universal standard of what kind of behavior is and isn't appropriate in a public space. But most people will have a personal view of what is appropriate, and when those differing views clash in the public realm there can be problems.

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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby FranklinAveFixation » April 2nd, 2015, 1:56 pm

maybe off topic?? but I've noticed a lot of marijuana dealing on the 21 lately, I'm all for people smoking weed and getting stoned if they so choose but the manner/venue in which they conduct business make me uncomfortable and isn't how we should go about increasing transit use. :lol:
The current modus operandi is for them to solicit customers at the chicago/lake transit station, then board a 21 (or 5) to complete the transaction. Very obvious and little to no effort to be discrete. You can hear them discussing the transaction and then the seller gets off at the next stop, presumably to walk back to the chicago/lake transit center to do it all over again.

grant1simons2
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby grant1simons2 » April 2nd, 2015, 2:01 pm

I see this is the day that we get very critical of people in the city.. and this thread is off topic.

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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby Tyler » April 2nd, 2015, 2:10 pm

It's not racist to acknowledge that in this country blacks are more likely to make a ruckus in public than whites. It's a cultural/environmental/socioeconomic thing. With regards to Nicollet Mall -- urbany things like vibrancy, eyes on the street, active uses, will help mitigate. With regards to the "problem" in general, the answer is the same as the one that ends racial inequality.
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Munch'n
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby Munch'n » April 2nd, 2015, 2:14 pm

I see this is the day that we get very critical of people in the city.. and this thread is off topic.
Why not get critical of people doing drug deals?
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby xandrex » April 2nd, 2015, 2:26 pm

Two things, a) that's city life for you,
I have never experienced that in Chicago.
I haven't experienced this in downtown Chicago, but I definitely noticed it when a group of us were staying out in a neighborhood and visiting Logan Square. There were plenty of people causing a ruckus that ranged from nuisance (being incredibly loud) to uncomfortable (cursing and heckling) to potentially dangerous (trying to do bike and skateboard tricks around the monument with little kids walking around and nearby).

I certainly didn't leave as it was a lovely day and that outweighed the issues for me, but several families that came there to relax packed up and left.

In relation to Nicollet Mall: There needs to be a balance of access and comfort for all. Saying, "Welcome to the city" or "Urban areas always have clashes like this" is defeatist. Betty Burnsville's feeling of safety must hold equal weight with Urban Scoundrel's access to public spaces.

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Munch'n
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby Munch'n » April 2nd, 2015, 2:30 pm

Yes stuff like this happens all around Chicago, but not in the loop, or around michigan avenue.
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Nick
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby Nick » April 2nd, 2015, 3:56 pm

It's not as succinct as I remember it, but I thought the Strib editorial board had a pretty good take on it:
It’s not “crime” that deters confidence on downtown streets, but rather the perception that something uncivil may happen — aggressive panhandling or loud cursing or other disorderly or threatening behavior that violates the middling sensibilities of most people, no matter their race or income level.
http://www.startribune.com/opinion/edit ... 87611.html

It's probably impossible to have a nuanced conversation about something like this with more than two people with less than four hours set aside and five years of context about the persons' experiences.

But, I'd say that it does kind of grind my gears when people in nice neighborhoods who don't take or seldom take local route buses or aren't on Nicollet Mall regularly or don't really experience _________ regularly will then lob out "racist!" that easily. That's not necessarily aimed at anyone on here specifically, just kind of thinking out loud. There pretty clearly is a behavior issue downtown, and I would say on a lot of transit, too. I'm on Nicollet Mall and on Nicollet Mall transit just about everyday, and there is "FUCK YOU MOTHERFUCKER" and hotboxing bus shelters and "FAGGOT" and pushing and shoving and fighting pretty regularly. A bit of it is mental illness, but most of it's not. We can SOC 1001 the causes and the overall situation all day long (and probably should) but as I get older and crotchetier, it's harder for me to blame Brayden and Kristin from Coon Rapids for thinking the city is lawless if their annual trip downtown for a Twins game is punctuated by that kind of stuff.
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UrsusUrbanicus
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby UrsusUrbanicus » April 2nd, 2015, 10:14 pm

In relation to Nicollet Mall: There needs to be a balance of access and comfort for all. Saying, "Welcome to the city" or "Urban areas always have clashes like this" is defeatist. Betty Burnsville's feeling of safety must hold equal weight with Urban Scoundrel's access to public spaces.
I don't disagree. Just to clarify, my concern is one for well-defined lines, rather than for the freedom of Joe Jerk to exercise his jerkitude. I've got nothing against the enforcement of livability offenses, even minor ones, when the behavior in question is well-specified and easy to refrain from. (Spitting may be the categorical example here). Same goes for even the more "gray" stuff, when you get into the higher shades of gray -- shouting at people should be treated as disorderly conduct, even without cursing or explicit threats.

Rather, I'm concerned about the potential for cultural misunderstandings that might wander close to the line if misinterpreted. By way of background, I'm an escapee from Wonder Bread suburbia (Prior Lake) who finally managed to make my permanent home in Minneapolis about 5 years back. Over time, I've come to notice that ordinary, friendly social interactions among African-American men often seem to happen at a higher volume and in a more energetic tone of voice than seen in other cultural groups. I recall several instances in which a mild fight-or-flight response kicked in upon hearing these interactions... only for me to realize, after a few seconds of watching facial expressions and body language, that there was no impending drama. If someone is a very infrequent visitor or spends little time downtown outside of office hours, they might be in the same boat I was -- not yet having acquired the experiential background to read such interactions correctly. Couple that with a responding cop who carries enough of a racial prejudice (as some do), and you have a pretty strong potential for a LOT of perfectly innocent things to suddenly go pear-shaped.

Double standards in enforcement can also be a real bugaboo... especially because the anecdata set is so hard to acquire. It requires a huge number of discrete experiences (consisting of both occurrences and non-occurrences) before one can truly do anything other than speculate -- but even a few are enough to "make you go hmmm". The kid on the bus who's wearing headphones, but they're just a smidge too loud? Legitimate concern, maybe, but not a federal case... yet many would say that this minor matter is much more likely to lead to trouble for a black kid than for a white one. Similarly, I've seen more than a few young African-Americans actively shooed away from bus stops, road signs, etc. merely for "loitering", while a white person in that setting would likely be ignored as just another people-watcher, waiting for a ride, etc.

The tl;dr on all this is that livability is a completely legitimate concern -- but many of us are worried about its potential for misuse by a small percentage of people with an axe to grind. We don't want to see it used as a cover story to justify the same old animus toward perceived "otherness" that's defined so much of our nation's history (whether on the basis of race, perceived socioeconomic status, style of dress, departure from gender stereotypes, you name it). And that has a way of sneaking in despite the best intentions of those who aren't using it for such a purpose.

Creole4u
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby Creole4u » April 3rd, 2015, 6:10 am

It's not racist to acknowledge that in this country blacks are more likely to make a ruckus in public than whites. It's a cultural/environmental/socioeconomic thing. With regards to Nicollet Mall -- urbany things like vibrancy, eyes on the street, active uses, will help mitigate. With regards to the "problem" in general, the answer is the same as the one that ends racial inequality.
AND THIS is an example of ignorance at its finest! And all said with such poignance. In all of my years on this earth, I have never seen/experienced a race of people who have been more historically chaotic, destructive & insensitive than white people. The only difference is, when "they" do it, it's more socially accepted, ignored and brushed off.

As FISHMANPET stated earlier with his evaluation of the "problem"......
"I'm sure this is going to come off sounding racist in some way, which means I either don't have the language to properly describe it or I just am racist so anyway here goes."

Seems to me it's people like YOU, (Tyler and FISHMANPET) who are the main contributors to the "problem."
“Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”
~ Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


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