Nicollet Mall

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
Lancestar2

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby Lancestar2 » April 3rd, 2015, 6:58 pm

xandrex wrote:
Again, the solution when cops are aggressive is not to stop using cops. It's to make a better police force that understands who they protect. Getting them on their feet or on bikes on Nicollet Mall (and elsewhere) is one way to do that. Behaviors that might appear very aggressive from behind a windshield can look very different when you're out on the street and can hear what's going on.

I can't say I've personally ever been heckled (I have had to deal with very aggressive panhandlers at times, though) and I like to walk with confidence but disinterest...I rarely am bothered. But to write off others concerns about feeling uncomfortable about being called a gay slur or the aggressive panhandling or the drug dealing that happens on the Mall is to ignore why our transit mall is currently a fraction of its potential.

I also don't get how "more diversity" will fix this. Do you mean exposure to more cultures? Even if we weren't going to be a majority white city and metro for the foreseeable future, who among us--black or white, rich or poor, man or woman, straight or LGBT--wants to be exposed to generally distasteful behavior. When we pretend that this is only us not understanding other cultures, we're kind of slapping the face of the majority of folks who don't look like us who also believe in a minimum standard of acceptable behavior.

More diversity equals more residents that have places to go and increases the perception of safety. As this is ONLY a perception of safety issues, considering we are talking about inner city youths yelling, being disrespectful, and being insulting. When you write about writing off others concerns about feeling uncomfortable about being called a gay slur or aggressive panhandling. Don't you gotta take a moment and think about what you just said? The insults people write online make what people say on the streets lame and bland at best. Honestly if your being insulted on Nicollet Mall by some inner city youth why can't you get over it? Of the people that insulted me on the street they tend to be very disgusting people, quite literary! Most smelled or there hair looked unwashed and most of the time they didn't even have a clean shirt. Run your mouth back at them if you feel offended. Usually they have some mental problems that make them such aggressive people, so I rarely respond. I'm sorry if you feel stressed or unsafe at times along Nicollet Mall, but being loud and rude is not or should not be a situation where police are needed to "keep the peace"

As to the Mall not living up to it's potential it's coming back greatly for the better with all the new retail. Downtown won't ever be THE shopping destination of the twin cities considering MOA exists. Yet it can and is fastly becoming a nice place to shop again.

grant1simons2
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby grant1simons2 » April 3rd, 2015, 7:01 pm

I agree with cops on foot or even horseback or bike. I rarely see it when I'm downtown. Someone needs to write to the chief about this, or start some sort of a push. And if we do someday get this, the officers selected should be very diverse. I think that would represent our downtown pretty well wouldn't it?

Lancestar2

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby Lancestar2 » April 3rd, 2015, 7:07 pm

grant1simons2 wrote:I agree with cops on foot or even horseback or bike. I rarely see it when I'm downtown. Someone needs to write to the chief about this, or start some sort of a push. And if we do someday get this, the officers selected should be very diverse. I think that would represent our downtown pretty well wouldn't it?
I actually have seen police on bikes riding down Nicollet Ave, a few state troopers walking and had stopped a few guys before, and I even seen a few cops in the skyway as well over Nicollet Mall. They do patrol Nicollet Mall! Just not back and forth constantly. It's a VERY safe route tons of cop cars help them keep eyes on more as they tend to travel quicker. The only difference you are asking is that cops be on the street instead? So they can hear better and hear these verbal insults?

Wedgeguy
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby Wedgeguy » April 3rd, 2015, 7:22 pm

grant1simons2 wrote:I agree with cops on foot or even horseback or bike. I rarely see it when I'm downtown. Someone needs to write to the chief about this, or start some sort of a push. And if we do someday get this, the officers selected should be very diverse. I think that would represent our downtown pretty well wouldn't it?
Grant I do not recommend cops on horse for the 2 reasons, horses shit. Also you can do better communicating with people when you are both closer to eye level. When an officer is on a horse there is the perception that the cop is looking down on them figuratively. Face to face you are more an equal and they should be more comfortable and the cops can deal with issues with no worry about the horse in the way.

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Anondson
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby Anondson » April 3rd, 2015, 9:09 pm

You know, even with the stigma of "mall cops" (security) I'd rather have city police along Nicollet Mall on Segway scooters than on horseback. They'd get a little bit of elevation to see over a crowd, but easily step off to engage citizens. I know horses are awesome for crowd control, but why risk the life of the animal for that.

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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby Wedgeguy » April 3rd, 2015, 9:15 pm

Anondson wrote:You know, even with the stigma of "mall cops" (security) I'd rather have city police along Nicollet Mall on Segway scooters than on horseback. They'd get a little bit of elevation to see over a crowd, but easily step off to engage citizens. I know horses are awesome for crowd control, but why risk the life of the animal for that.
DID folks would have to get paid hazard pay for dealing with the poop!!

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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby xandrex » April 3rd, 2015, 10:57 pm

Lancestar2 wrote:More diversity equals more residents that have places to go and increases the perception of safety. As this is ONLY a perception of safety issues, considering we are talking about inner city youths yelling, being disrespectful, and being insulting. When you write about writing off others concerns about feeling uncomfortable about being called a gay slur or aggressive panhandling. Don't you gotta take a moment and think about what you just said? The insults people write online make what people say on the streets lame and bland at best. Honestly if your being insulted on Nicollet Mall by some inner city youth why can't you get over it? Of the people that insulted me on the street they tend to be very disgusting people, quite literary! Most smelled or there hair looked unwashed and most of the time they didn't even have a clean shirt. Run your mouth back at them if you feel offended. Usually they have some mental problems that make them such aggressive people, so I rarely respond. I'm sorry if you feel stressed or unsafe at times along Nicollet Mall, but being loud and rude is not or should not be a situation where police are needed to "keep the peace"

As to the Mall not living up to it's potential it's coming back greatly for the better with all the new retail. Downtown won't ever be THE shopping destination of the twin cities considering MOA exists. Yet it can and is fastly becoming a nice place to shop again.
Diversity doesn't increase the number of people with places to go...it changes what the make-up of whatever the population is. You can have a town with increasing diversity and fewer and fewer people in that place.

I would not write this off as only a perception issue. It's largely a perception issue, but there was just a fatal shooting downtown and on St. Patrick's we had a mob of teenagers come down and make a ruckus. Is that only perception? You're greatly underestimating what people with choices will do if they even perceive that downtown is unsafe or even just not to their taste. If Minneapolis is to have a 24/7 downtown, where people are living, working, and shopping, you need to make sure they feel comfortable. It can already be a hassle to deal with downtown, especially with retail so nearby in the suburbs. Part of growing this city is convincing suburbanites that urban living isn't just what they see on the news. So let's not give them that excuse.

I don't know if you accidentally or intentionally misread my post, but I said I do not feel uncomfortable downtown, despite having a few run ins with aggressive panhandling (of the type where I was grabbed before I shook the guy off and yelled at him). But I can absolutely see why a woman would not feel comfortable being cat-called or walking past a large group of men if they were being rowdy or if it was late at night. These are livability issues, and if they don't bother you, that's fine, but to figuratively say, "Nothing to see here, move along" is just obtuse.


A possible solution that doesn't involve cops: More DID employees. I love all those people. They keep it clean, they frequently greet meet on the street and smile, they give directions to tourists, and they're more eyes on the street.

grrdanko
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby grrdanko » April 4th, 2015, 10:48 am

I don't understand how this conversation got racial. None of these are racial issues. I think many people focus on race too much. It isn't relevant or productive.

There are a few things downtown that can cause problem for people. They range from unpleasant to concerns for livability. None of these issues are racial they are behavioral.

A main thing that makes downtown unpleasant for some people is the street homelessness. You are sitting on a restaurant patio and someone will try to shake you down for change while you are having dinner. People are in a vulnerable spot here and the panhandlers play on that. Many people aren't willing to tell them to go away and they will give them a few bucks to not cause a scene. This isn't a dangerous situation, but many people aren't willing to deal with that uncomfortable situation especially when they can go to the suburbs and not deal with it at all. You can get dinner anywhere. Downtown needs to add to the experience not detract from it.

Another thing that makes people uncomfortable is anti-social behavior. Some people are loud, foul mouthed, spit on the sidewalk, bump into you etc.

Both of these groups make the public space less pleasant. They aren't generally dangerous, but they discourage people from enjoying the public space. We don't need cops cracking skulls to keep everyone in line. We need people engaging in anti-social behavior to not feel comfortable doing it here. I think DID goes a long way. I think maybe they can start a DID program to engage with people who are causing trouble. They could go up to a person and ask them not to litter or ask them not to spit on the sidewalk or ask a panhandler not to bother people. This doesn't make it feel like a police state. It just makes certain behaviors socially unacceptable. If someone is violent or committing a crime the DID rep can call the police. I think many of these problems go away with a program like that.

Lancestar2

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby Lancestar2 » April 4th, 2015, 12:03 pm

xandrex wrote:
Lancestar2 wrote:More diversity equals more residents that have places to go and increases the perception of safety. As this is ONLY a perception of safety issues, considering we are talking about inner city youths yelling, being disrespectful, and being insulting. When you write about writing off others concerns about feeling uncomfortable about being called a gay slur or aggressive panhandling. Don't you gotta take a moment and think about what you just said? The insults people write online make what people say on the streets lame and bland at best. Honestly if your being insulted on Nicollet Mall by some inner city youth why can't you get over it? Of the people that insulted me on the street they tend to be very disgusting people, quite literary! Most smelled or there hair looked unwashed and most of the time they didn't even have a clean shirt. Run your mouth back at them if you feel offended. Usually they have some mental problems that make them such aggressive people, so I rarely respond. I'm sorry if you feel stressed or unsafe at times along Nicollet Mall, but being loud and rude is not or should not be a situation where police are needed to "keep the peace"

As to the Mall not living up to it's potential it's coming back greatly for the better with all the new retail. Downtown won't ever be THE shopping destination of the twin cities considering MOA exists. Yet it can and is fastly becoming a nice place to shop again.
Diversity doesn't increase the number of people with places to go...it changes what the make-up of whatever the population is. You can have a town with increasing diversity and fewer and fewer people in that place.

I would not write this off as only a perception issue. It's largely a perception issue, but there was just a fatal shooting downtown and on St. Patrick's we had a mob of teenagers come down and make a ruckus. Is that only perception? You're greatly underestimating what people with choices will do if they even perceive that downtown is unsafe or even just not to their taste. If Minneapolis is to have a 24/7 downtown, where people are living, working, and shopping, you need to make sure they feel comfortable. It can already be a hassle to deal with downtown, especially with retail so nearby in the suburbs. Part of growing this city is convincing suburbanites that urban living isn't just what they see on the news. So let's not give them that excuse.

I don't know if you accidentally or intentionally misread my post, but I said I do not feel uncomfortable downtown, despite having a few run ins with aggressive panhandling (of the type where I was grabbed before I shook the guy off and yelled at him). But I can absolutely see why a woman would not feel comfortable being cat-called or walking past a large group of men if they were being rowdy or if it was late at night. These are livability issues, and if they don't bother you, that's fine, but to figuratively say, "Nothing to see here, move along" is just obtuse.


A possible solution that doesn't involve cops: More DID employees. I love all those people. They keep it clean, they frequently greet meet on the street and smile, they give directions to tourists, and they're more eyes on the street.

Ok, I hear what you are saying. St. Patricks day was a drinking holiday on which tons of young people flocked downtown because they had nothing better to do. Police responded accordingly and the gun shot to my understanding was unrelated and not aimed at pedestrians. Yet, there is an underline point to your example, the fact that so many young people ended up here randomly is likely because they are accustomed to handing out here. It's a cultural behavior that IMO I don't think wasting increased funds or decreasing police presence in OTHER area of the city to bring more police presence to Nicollet Mall is justified. Other parts of the city I think are much more dangerous. Heck look at the MOA they also had a flash mob of youth not to long ago. Shooing away these people won't fix anything besides wasting more funds. They will just find another place to "hang out" and the cycle will continue again.

Although your suggestion about more DID personal presence I would agree with you on that!! :mrgreen:

DID does a great job helping people and could really help keep the area inviting without harassing, yet if needed in those rare situation they know who to call. To expand upon this issue, do you know more specifics? What time periods do you think is a problem time that would warrant increased DID personal presence? Is it mostly midday, weekends, evenings overnights? What time periods do you see the most concern about? Also what type of staffing do you think would fix the problem? one DID personal two, or more? I like that suggestion, but If your suggestion was a bit more specific perhaps it would be better received if say somebody wrote a letter of that suggestion to DID to see what they think about that specifically.

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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby EOst » April 11th, 2015, 9:09 am

http://www.tcdailyplanet.net/news/2015/ ... ffects-you

Can't say I hate the idea of Nicollet being bike-only from May on...

Any guesses where buses are going to be rerouted?

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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby Silophant » April 11th, 2015, 9:29 am

The taxis are disappearing permanently. Hallelujah!

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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby Wedgeguy » April 11th, 2015, 1:40 pm

Silophant wrote:The taxis are disappearing permanently. Hallelujah!
Have never understood why taxi's were allowed on the mall in the first place.

min-chi-cbus
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby min-chi-cbus » April 13th, 2015, 7:32 am

B/c that's where people are....and people = fares for taxis.

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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby twincitizen » April 13th, 2015, 7:52 am

Buses will detour starting sometime this May and will return to normal when construction is done in 2017. Taxis also are not allowed to drive down the Mall, and they will not be allowed north of 12th Street in 2017. With the absence of taxis and buses, bikers will have the street to themselves at least for 2015. In 2016, when the real construction begins, there will be no bikers allowed until the project is complete.
Has there ever been confirmation of this from the project office? I'm far too skeptical to take a TC Daily Planet post as gospel. I know this was discussed, but I always figured it would not happen without significant opposition from the taxi companies.

grant1simons2
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby grant1simons2 » April 13th, 2015, 8:03 am

This was discussed by the group at their public meeting in December. They sounded pretty serious about it too.

Viktor Vaughn
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby Viktor Vaughn » April 13th, 2015, 8:59 am

Setting up a couple of taxi stands on cross streets directly adjacent to Nicollet Mall would be a good compromise.

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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby Wedgeguy » April 13th, 2015, 9:33 am

Viktor Vaughn wrote:Setting up a couple of taxi stands on cross streets directly adjacent to Nicollet Mall would be a good compromise.
Pretty sure that is already the case. I have never seen a cab hailed on Nicollet Mall. Have seen a few drop offs, But no one getting in a cab. Maybe it is a rare thing in MPLS to take a cab, as most people drive, or our core is so compact that people can easily walk in our gerbil tubes to their next meeting. Maybe it is to keep Uber and Lyft drivers off the mall. For me the fewer vehicles on the mall the better.

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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby mattaudio » April 13th, 2015, 10:45 am

There already are taxi stands on the cross streets. And it's always faster to walk to those than hail a cab on Nicollet. I always figured they were put on Nicollet to try and make the street look more "urban" at night in the absence of more people.

trigonalmayhem

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby trigonalmayhem » April 13th, 2015, 11:52 am

EOst wrote:http://www.tcdailyplanet.net/news/2015/ ... ffects-you

Can't say I hate the idea of Nicollet being bike-only from May on...

Any guesses where buses are going to be rerouted?
As a daily rider of nicollet mall buses I'm curious about this too. In a better world it would maybe marq2, but the opposite directions of the express busses. In reality it'll probably be a painful and time consuming detour to hennepin where the bus lane will continue to never be enforced.

twincitizen
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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Postby twincitizen » April 13th, 2015, 12:20 pm

It will almost certainly be Hennepin, as Nicollet buses have always been routed to Hennepin during parades, Thursday Farmers Market teardown, etc.

There's at least one huge event on Hennepin I can think of that does the inverse and detours buses to Nicollet - Pride. How's that gonna work? If buses are already being detoured to Hennepin, you can't exactly kick them off for Pride...


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