Nicollet Mall

[Silophant]

I'm strenuously against the idea of sacrificing public amenities for everyone for fear that poor people might use them.

As you say, John, there will always be panhandlers and homeless people on Nicollet. Even with the skyways sucking people off the street, it's still the area with the most foot traffic, and the best accessibility to transit. No panhandler is going to say "Oh, if there was more seating on Nicollet I'd go over there, but since I'd have to stand, I'll just go panhandle at 13th and Hawthorne instead."

[Wedgeguy]

We will all survive the mall with seat or not. If we design for the worse case scenario, then we would have prison cubical. There maybe has to be more foot patrols to keep things stable, but I'm fine with that. Trying to keep people off will only make thing worse in the long run.

[BoredAgain]

Why in God's name are there pedestrian "beg" buttons? This is a pedestrian mall. Is it really so hard to just automatically include a pedestrian cycle in every light cycle? These cost money, are unattractive, clutter the sidewalks, and should be completely useless.

[VAStationDude]

Why in God's name are there pedestrian "beg" buttons? This is a pedestrian mall. Is it really so hard to just automatically include a pedestrian cycle in every light cycle? These cost money, are unattractive, clutter the sidewalks, and should be completely useless.

ADA?

[grant1simons2]

^^ Yep

http://www.apsguide.org/chapter1_guidance.cfm

[EOst]

Why in God's name are there pedestrian "beg" buttons? This is a pedestrian mall. Is it really so hard to just automatically include a pedestrian cycle in every light cycle? These cost money, are unattractive, clutter the sidewalks, and should be completely useless.

"WAIT... WAIT... WAIT..."

Every light cycle will have a pedestrian phase. They do now, and that isn't something they would change.

[twincitizen]

I could understand countdown timers, even audible countdown timers, but not the beg buttons themselves. If the walk cycle comes on automatically with every phase, in every direction along the "mall" portion, beg buttons would serve no purpose.

[Silophant]

As I understand it, the audible countdown timer speakers are integrated into the beg button housing, so you can't* get them without getting the beg buttons as well. There's a bunch of locations on campus that have automatic walk cycles, but also have beg buttons that are disabled and can't be pressed.

*Well, I'm sure they could special order a custom design, which would probably be justified in this case.

[FISHMANPET]

It seems like you could just leave the wires dangling inside the pole and not attach the button...

Sent from my phone

[EOst]

I could understand countdown timers, even audible countdown timers, but not the beg buttons themselves. If the walk cycle comes on automatically with every phase, in every direction along the "mall" portion, beg buttons would serve no purpose.

Perhaps the thinking is (especially with the "WAIT" reminders) that you don't want the noise pollution unless it's necessary, i.e. someone asked for it. Most people can never hit the button, but it's there for people who expect it or need its accessibility improvements.

[Mdcastle]

Points about the buttons:

You need both an audible and tactile notification. Normally the speaker and vibrator are integrated into the button. I'm not aware of any products available where there is not a button, FWIW there is none on Mn/DOT's approved product list (even though I know Mpls uses their own standards) and do not think it would much cheaper, if at all. You'd basically have all the electronics, minus one mechanical button. Maintenance would then have to stock two different items to replace knockdowns (and we're ADA requires them to be placed makes them extremely vulnerable to drunk drivers). I assume the button part will be redundant and they'll just give automatic walks like they do now.

I'm not sure what the comment means about "leave the wires dangling in the pole" If no buttons are installed there are no wires. The terminals in the traffic cabinets for pedestrian calls are just left empty with no wires attached. As has been discussed, to meet ADA requirements there have to be wires to the required audible / tactile stations. For these there's a supplemental controller (costing thousands of dollars) mounted in the cabinet and two wires going from each station to the controller, no seperate "button wires"/

MUTCD does not mandate accessible signals. It does encourage them and provides standards for them to meet. As has been pointed out to me, Minneapolis and Hennepin County have recently installed some non-accessible signals. But Minneapolis obviously thinks they're desirable in the downtown area. Mn/DOT is required to install accessible signals for all new installations due to a legal agreement with disability groups.

[contrast]

Too late now, but I was thinking about how street trees really struggle and often look sad along here. I know they are working on more permeable surfaces, etc. but what if you had a massive trellis design that went curb to curb plus more right over the street for maybe a third of a block. Plant some really hardy vines and shade parts of the street and sidewalk. Would be neat to walk under and then pop back out again. Also following on prior comment about not blocking the view of the IDS. I agree. If the design blocks the view, it has to be significant and interesting, but still allow for a big reveal when you come out the other end.

[Mdcastle]

Weren't the locust trees doing fine until they got the bright idea to chop them all down and replace them with a non-native variety of pine?

[acs]

http://www.minnpost.com/cityscape/2015/ ... andoned-it

It's really funny/sad how history repeats itself. I'm sure we'll be back at this in 2045 asking why retail sucks downtown and how many millions we need to spend to make it better. Nicollet isn't coming back until the two most critical flaws are taken seriously; the bums and the skyways, in that order.

[EOst]

Nicollet isn't coming back until the two most critical flaws are taken seriously; the bums and the skyways, in that order.

I'm sure you have a solution in mind.

[Chava]

Neither homeless people or the underground pedestrian tunnels seemed to have stopped State Street in Chicago from coming alive from the sleepy retail place it once was.

State St does have a subway running under it, so it has that going for it. But Nicollett has a light rail stop fed by two lines, so there's that too.

[LakeCharles]

I don't think "the bums" are a big problem at all. A connection to the skyways would be nice though.

I find it interesting that it used to be based around retail, and hence the heart was 6th-8th. Now the busiest stores seem to be the restaurants, and the liveliest parts are further south. So my (extremely uninformed) easy short term fix would be to get some restaurants on the northern end. Or really just anything at all on the northern end.

[acs]

You won't get the public street to skyway connection that is really needed until you clear out the bums and make it safe to do so. That's been the narrative from the building owners for over 30 years.

And I agree with LakeCharles. In my experience living and working downtown the #1 thing that brings vibrancy to an area (narrowly defined as people of any sort on a street/sidewalk) are restaurants. #2 would be transit stops, although there's a big caveat...

[mattaudio]

"Clear out the bums?" I'm not going to take social justice / equity angle because that would just be too easy. But I've spent plenty of time on Nicollet Mall over the years, and I've never felt threatened by "bums" even when I was a high school punk growing up in the distant burbs. Sure, I've seen some shouting matches between cars and people at bus stops, and I've seen that hate group that shows up Friday nights with their loudspeaker, etc. But folks that are just hanging out on the street, maybe with a sign, maybe not, don't seem to be a problem.

[HiawathaGuy]

"Clear out the bums?" I'm not going to take social justice / equity angle because that would just be too easy. But I've spent plenty of time on Nicollet Mall over the years, and I've never felt threatened by "bums" even when I was a high school punk growing up in the distant burbs. Sure, I've seen some shouting matches between cars and people at bus stops, and I've seen that hate group that shows up Friday nights with their loudspeaker, etc. But folks that are just hanging out on the street, maybe with a sign, maybe not, don't seem to be a problem.

I couldn't agree more! If homeless people, or people begging make you uncomfortable - that says more about you, than it does about them.