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Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Posted: February 1st, 2016, 2:39 pm
by helsinki
EOst wrote:
helsinki wrote:Second, the idea that labor costs make installing a certain material prohibitive seems a bit silly. It's expensive to have workers pour concrete. Is it so vastly different to lay pavers? Probably to a degree, but not in kind.
I've obviously never laid pavers on a street, but I imagine it really could be, especially for a project like this. Remember that the pavers were designed to be laid out in several different herringbone patterns (to resist ware), and that Nicollet Mall has curves. At every boundary, at all intersections, and at the curb (both for the sidewalk and the road, since the pavers were for both) you have to fill in the correct space with pavers that have been cut to fit. So you would need many thousands of small, precise cuts on pavers that you can't really afford to make mistakes with. Sounds like a lot of work to me.
Herringbone is an elegant name for a very simple pattern. I don't think it requires enormous brains to repeat a zig-zag.

Of course it requires some skill. But construction requires skilled trades. Why should this be any different? How does this one material entirely change the equation?

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Posted: February 1st, 2016, 2:39 pm
by FISHMANPET
I think you're drastically underestimating how labor intensive paver laying is, but since neither of us are actually construction contractors we can't really say for sure.

I will say though that it has to be telling that we stopped paving everything with individual pavers and started using things like concrete and asphalt instead for a vast majority of things.

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Posted: February 1st, 2016, 2:40 pm
by Nathan
Nathan wrote:The pavers IN THE STREET in Duluth are not clay, they're concrete.
Unless you're referring to a location I'm unfamiliar with, the pavers in the sidewalks are the same as the sidewalks in the streets, and they're both clay. Citation: Me, as a little kid, watching them get installed.[/quote]

Me as an adult landscaping materials salesperson and designer as an adult refutes that.

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Posted: February 1st, 2016, 2:41 pm
by helsinki
FISHMANPET wrote:I think you're drastically underestimating how labor intensive paver laying is, but since neither of us are actually construction contractors we can't really say for sure.

I will say though that it has to be telling that we stopped paving everything with individual pavers and started using things like concrete and asphalt instead for a vast majority of things.
Well, cobblestone streets are extremely bumpy to drive one. My guess is that this had a lot to do with it.

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Posted: February 1st, 2016, 2:50 pm
by Nathan
*looking at Google maps there are lots of clay pavers in Duluth in that area but lots have been patched in areas and have been replaced with concrete.

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Posted: February 1st, 2016, 2:56 pm
by amiller92
Having just replaced our garage and replaced/removed all of the cement, I can tell you I was told that pavers would be a lot more expensive.

I can't say precisely how much more expensive, because we didn't go down that road because, again, told "a lot."

Which is consistent with what I heard from my parents when they built their house, and the prior house.

Also, as to maintenance, our old building had pavers for the main driveway/entrance that required annual maintenance. Personally, I'd say that condo board liked to spend money, such that "required" may not mean exactly what it would if I was the sole decision maker, but nonetheless, if it was asphalt or concrete, there wouldn't have been a crew there for a week every summer.

They may well be worth it, but I don't think there's any question that pavers cost more than concrete.

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Posted: February 1st, 2016, 3:00 pm
by seanrichardryan
Weren't the nixed pavers key to the storm water management on the Mall?

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Posted: February 2nd, 2016, 8:33 am
by grant1simons2
Public meeting on Feb. 10th at Pohlad hall. Doors open at 6. There will be a Q&A.

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Posted: February 2nd, 2016, 9:44 am
by MN Fats
Can anyone recommend a good place to rent a pitchfork?

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Posted: February 2nd, 2016, 10:25 am
by MNdible
I'd recommend folks on the forum go ahead and buy their pitchforks -- it'll be good for years of righteous indignation.

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Posted: February 2nd, 2016, 10:29 am
by twinkess
Got your pitchforks right here!

Traditional ---E
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I EVEN HAVE DISCOUNTED CLEARANCE FORKS! ---F ---L ---e

NEW IN STOCK. DIRECTLY FROM LICHTENSTEIN. EUROPEAN MODELS! ---€ ---£

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Posted: February 2nd, 2016, 10:37 am
by mattaudio
MN Fats wrote:Can anyone recommend a good place to rent a pitchfork?
Real Minneapolis Homeowners (tm) have compost bins. Thus they have pitchforks.
Rent a pitchfork... what is this world coming to...

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Posted: February 2nd, 2016, 10:45 am
by mplsjaromir
mattaudio wrote:
MN Fats wrote:Can anyone recommend a good place to rent a pitchfork?
Real Minneapolis Homeowners (tm) have compost bins. Thus they have pitchforks.
Rent a pitchfork... what is this world coming to...
This hits close to home.

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Posted: February 2nd, 2016, 11:36 am
by JT$
mattaudio wrote:
MN Fats wrote:Can anyone recommend a good place to rent a pitchfork?
Real Minneapolis Homeowners (tm) have compost bins. Thus they have pitchforks.
Rent a pitchfork... what is this world coming to...
Not if you are part of the new organics recycling program with the city. ;)

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Posted: February 2nd, 2016, 12:34 pm
by mulad
There are cases where brick/paver installation can be assisted by machines, at least if you've got a relatively straight shot. This technique probably wouldn't work well with the way Nicollet is laid out, but something like this might still work for a narrow starter path which could be extended out to the sides by hand:



I still think we can do pavers just fine around here, but there needs to be a lot of attention paid to having a proper maintenance cycle. These aren't installations that you can put down and just leave alone for 30 years. But most of the places we put them are high-value enough that it shouldn't be a dealbreaker to pull up pavers, refresh the top layer of sand, and re-lay them once every 10 years, for instance. Most of the pavers can be reused, especially if they don't have designs or colors that are too unusual.

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Posted: February 2nd, 2016, 12:40 pm
by grant1simons2
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3h9KM ... sp=sharing

PROJECT UPDATE TOMORROW / WEDNESDAY

6 PM doors open

6:15 presentation

7:15 Q&A

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Posted: February 10th, 2016, 12:43 pm
by Silophant
Reminder that that meeting Grant mentioned is tonight at 6:15. I won't be able to make it, but I hope someone can.

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Posted: February 10th, 2016, 7:03 pm
by acs
So we go from this:
Image

to this:
Image
Image

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Posted: February 10th, 2016, 7:09 pm
by Nathan
Yeah I'm not really concerned anymore after going to the meeting. People seemed more concerned about the process of screwing up the bid than the actual change in materials. Annoying.

The one thing I was wondering was if there was any storm water retention missing now that it's poured concrete.

Re: Nicollet Mall Reconstruction Project

Posted: February 10th, 2016, 7:13 pm
by EOst
Honestly I kinda like it. It's much brighter.