The Commons - Downtown East Park

[FISHMANPET]

[Archiapolis]

=^]

[grant1simons2]

I don't know if anyone noticed, but they fenced off the entire parking lot and left the pocket park open. So we can still enjoy watching the construction happen from a park!

[xandrex]

If you think this wasn't going to pass had the picture the media shown included the park being severed by a road, you're not looking closely enough at who the vested interests are for the entire DTE redevelopment.

True, which is why it's so strange that the public had to be, and continues to be, significantly misled about what they will be getting.

Anyone looking past the pretty picture and actually reading the stories coming out about the Commons have to be pretty aware that there very well might be a road.

There's literally no image the media could share right now that wouldn't be misleading. We have no clue what the park will look like.

There is a greater than 95 percent chance that the outlets sharing these pictures are doing it because whoever is responsible for uploading material to the content management system hasn't been following this development and is therefore pulling the approved images they have from their server, which happen to be older.

[mnmike]

What xandrex said....There is no grand conspiracy here. Ryan's fly overs even include the streets. News sources use old renderings all the time...we are lucky if they even use renderings for the correct site most of the time!

[Avian]

Archiapolis never argued it was a conspiracy. And I agree with most everything he's said.

The rendering of the park - from the very beginning - should have been ghosted in. In my career as a 3d Artist I have never been asked to fabricate such an elaborate context (Enhance? Sure. Suggest? Sure. Make it look occupied? Sure). Especially when the parties involved knew that Ryan would not be developing the park and would leave instead it up to the Park Board. It's no conspiracy but I consider it to be unethical.

[mnmike]

I don't think I was referring to Arch...I think it was Matt that specifically said that the public was being purposefully mislead about what they are getting ....though Arch did sort of say that as well, not in so many words.

Avian, you mean like this, that Grant posted?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... gbYTUgjxCE

Doesn't get much more blank slate than that. Sure they do use some of the "idea" images at the end, so I see what you are saying there. Though I think it was pretty clear that they were just that, potential uses. They have shown many different things, just to show what kind of things the space could be used for, which I don't think is unreasonable. Once it was clear the roads were staying, they put the roads in the newer images. Anyway, just saying, I don't think there is anything malicious going on here. But it is business of course, so there is that.

If there's anything to really be irritated with, it is the parking ramp mess. Ryan won the bid for the air rights there, and now has no proposal...the city should certainly be coming down on them to be sure they deliver something of the same level/timeline as what won them the bid! I think that is the one to watch in this area. Ryan never promised anything more for the park than grass and trees...the air rights site they promised sizable development to win.

[Avian]

However, that video was posted a year after Ryan announced the Wells Fargo project and published the renderings of the lush park. Furthermore, the renderings were released in May of 2013, three months after Hennepin County stated that closing Park and/or Portland was a non-starter.

[mnmike]

However, that video was posted a year after Ryan announced the Wells Fargo project and published the renderings of the lush park. Furthermore, the renderings were released in May of 2013, three months after Hennepin County stated that closing Park and/or Portland was a non-starter.

So then you are arguing it IS a conspiracy to mislead the public? I mean, it's not really important...I just don't happen to believe it is, you said nobody said it was, but your responses sure sound like you are saying it is. Aaaanyway, I digress. Hopefully the design of the park turns out well.

[Nick]

It's not a grand conspiracy, but I'll say that it was a little uncouth that the StarTribune, a private corporation that stood to make tens of millions of dollars in the land sale, continued to run the wrong renderings over and over again. The captions just started saying things like "initial" renderings a couple months ago. It's a little thing, but meh.

[Didier]

Maybe we should offer them free naming rights for the park?

[Didier]

Remember that debate?

[Archiapolis]

It's not a grand conspiracy, but I'll say that it was a little uncouth that the StarTribune, a private corporation that stood to make tens of millions of dollars in the land sale, continued to run the wrong renderings over and over again. The captions just started saying things like "initial" renderings a couple months ago. It's a little thing, but meh.

Sadly, everything that has been said to excuse/apologize for/legitimize this whole process just proves that you can literally show anything you want in order to get approval for your project.

The communication here has been very instructive and very surprising (to me) at the same time.

If the urbanmsp group just shrugs its shoulders at a trifling thing like eliminating a road in visualizations then NO ONE is going to care about such things I guess. Good to get a reading on the threshold for accuracy/truth/reality.

/end rant

[MNdible]

This is not the same thing as a developer saying he's going to use brick on a building but then substituting vinyl siding.

Ryan never said they were going to build a park, with or without Portland running through the middle of it. Never. They promised to sell the land to the city, and they have done exactly that. They provided a rendering to illustrate what that park could look like, but the City knew from the get go:

1. The City would only be able to build out a beautiful park to the extent that the City could afford to pay for it / fund raise for it.
2. The City would only be able to close off Portland if they could convince the County to let them do it (and the county almost immediately went on the record saying they were opposed to the idea).

Everybody that voted on this deal fully understood the above. Again, there was no bait-and-switch regarding the park. Ryan showed a rendering with Portland closed because that's what they hoped would happen. Who knows, it may still happen.

There are certainly a long list of things about this deal that are sketchy, but this really isn't one of them. Your obsession over it is... weird.

[HiawathaGuy]

There are certainly a long list of things about this deal that are sketchy, but this really isn't one of them. Your obsession over it is... weird.

Hear, hear!

I might add that many of the same people arguing that there was a bait and switch with the renderings, are also the ones who often claim that this park is a "Ziggy playground", or other similarly worded comments. Neglecting the several hundred dwellings that surround this park, and the 5,000+ people who will be in a new office building 5 days/week, across the street from it - not to mention all the other hundreds or thousands who are within a 5 min. walk. The park, although it may be adjacent to the new stadium, will see more usage from everyday downtown people more than anything else.

[mplsjaromir]

There has to be a compelling reason to go the park for the particular user. If the design of the park is focused on providing the best pre-game experience for the Vikings and their fans, visiting the park may not be desirable to office workers and residents. Let's hope that a design that is amenable to both sets users is found and executed.

[Nick]

can't believe the park doesn't have birdbaths. shame on "zgyimunt"

[Didier]

I might add that many of the same people arguing that there was a bait and switch with the renderings, are also the ones who often claim that this park is a "Ziggy playground", or other similarly worded comments.

To be fair, this paranoia was pretty justified when it came out how many days the Vikings would be granted exclusive use of the park. But a lot of the concerns about this died down when MLS picked the other ownership group. Had MLS played in the stadium, the Commons would have been taken over like 40 weekends of something ridiculous like that.

[TroyGBiv]

I didn't realize that they were starting on the apartment building on the western edge of the park already. They have excavated about half of the area already. Does this building have a name or a design?

[mamundsen]

It's been discussed for the last few pages in the downtown east Wells Fargo thread.