Century Plaza / Convention Hotel rumoring (archive)

[MNdible]

As far as the hotel being 50 stories or more, that may seem incredibly tall for us in Minneapolis, but from a national or worldwide perspective, urban hotels of that height are a dime a dozen.

We've been through this before, but... there certainly are a lot of very tall hotels in the luxury categories. There are very few convention hotels that are that tall. They need to be affordable to build and efficient to operate. A tall, skinny floorplate works against both of those goals.

[MS3]

Why is it so much more "efficient" to operate if it's tall and skinny verse's stubby ugly and wide? Is it the amount of energy the elevators use to go up the extra 10-15 floors? I'm not an engineer or an architect but a 1000 rooms is a 1000 rooms no matter if their horizontal or vertical- right?

[MNdible]

Housekeeping, for starters.

[John]

Why is it so much more "efficient" to operate if it's tall and skinny verse's stubby ugly and wide? Is it the amount of energy the elevators use to go up the extra 10-15 floors? I'm not an engineer or an architect but a 1000 rooms is a 1000 rooms no matter if their horizontal or vertical- right?

You are exactly right. A 50 story building is not some great engineering feat like it was in 1915! A new hotel on 330 South 12th will have to be quite tall to fit 1000 rooms given the size of the parcel. Here's a rendering of a 50 story convention center hotel to start construction this year in Austin Texas. I have my doubts it was designed to be inefficient!

[Andrew_F]

A 50-story building isn't an engineering feat anymore, but it is undeniably more expensive to build the same floorspace in a taller building than a shorter one. The loads in a 25-story building are a hell of a lot less than in a 50-story one-- steel and concrete aren't free. Construction is more expensive at higher levels. Faster elevators are more expensive. More square footage is wasted to hallways with smaller, more inefficient layouts. More mechanical space is required. Heating and cooling is less efficient (heat rises). It takes more time for housekeeping and maintenance to get between rooms. Ect, ect, ect...

I feel like we have been through this several times.

[nasa35]

A 50-story building isn't an engineering feat anymore, but it is undeniably more expensive to build the same floorspace in a taller building than a shorter one. The loads in a 25-story building are a hell of a lot less than in a 50-story one-- steel and concrete aren't free. Construction is more expensive at higher levels. Faster elevators are more expensive. More square footage is wasted to hallways with smaller, more inefficient layouts. More mechanical space is required. Heating and cooling is less efficient (heat rises). It takes more time for housekeeping and maintenance to get between rooms. Ect, ect, ect...

I feel like we have been through this several times.

Sometimes I wonder why some of you even post here. Architecture isn't supposed to just be all the six floor north korean crap we are constructing at an alarming rate. Sometimes it's supposed to dazzle, make a statement, be a focal point. Apparently few of you have ever met or spoken with a good architect and designer/developer.

[mattaudio]

Maybe we can get some six floor mixed use above the Pizza Ranch in Andover?

[Tom H.]

I heard Walmart was looking to construct a prototype "TowerMart" superstore in Isanti - 50 stories with ground-level retail, 39 stories of parking, 5 floors of Walmart, and a convention center hotel on the top 5 floors. The dazzling-ness and statement-making is sure to attract tons of visitors.

[nasa35]

I heard Walmart was looking to construct a prototype "TowerMart" superstore in Isanti - 50 stories with ground-level retail, 39 stories of parking, 5 floors of Walmart, and a convention center hotel on the top 5 floors. The dazzling-ness and statement-making is sure to attract tons of visitors.

LOL, like I said, some of you need to hang out at the cartoon network. Snarky malcontents; makes me appreciate what I have.

[Nick]

[gahwi003]

A 50-story building isn't an engineering feat anymore, but it is undeniably more expensive to build the same floorspace in a taller building than a shorter one. The loads in a 25-story building are a hell of a lot less than in a 50-story one-- steel and concrete aren't free. Construction is more expensive at higher levels. Faster elevators are more expensive. More square footage is wasted to hallways with smaller, more inefficient layouts. More mechanical space is required. Heating and cooling is less efficient (heat rises). It takes more time for housekeeping and maintenance to get between rooms. Ect, ect, ect...

I feel like we have been through this several times.

I agree that some of the items listed above are valid arguments, but housekeeping and maintenance needs to stop being thrown around as a reason. They need to restock supplies often anyway, so don't even suggest that the time it takes for an employee to change floors affects building height. Especially at the cost of time.

[FISHMANPET]

The more floors the more of the floorplate is taken up by elevators. The hotel in New Orleans had two banks of elevators, one for the bottom half of the hotel, one for the upper half of the hotel. That probably cuts down on the need for elevators, but I suspect that doubling the height of a building more than doubles the need of elevator shafts.

[MNdible]

I forgot that the real reason that developers build hotels is to dazzle urban commentators. That's why there are so many 70 story convention hotels.

[nasa35]

I forgot that the real reason that developers build hotels is to dazzle urban commentators. That's why there are so many 70 story convention hotels.

you're boarding on ignorant now. No wonder so many good and solid posters no longer linger here. You must be a joy to be around.

[Didier]

There's a perception that people are are "arguing against" a tall, architecturally interesting hotel.

It's not an argument. People are simply pointing out evidence as to why a tall, architecturally significant convention hotel is unlikely.

[John]

There's a perception that people are are "arguing against" a tall, architecturally interesting hotel.

It's not an argument. People are simply pointing out evidence as to why a tall, architecturally significant convention hotel is unlikely.

The "evidence" does not point to a squat building. The parcel of 330 South 12th street is not very large and will dictate a taller building if you want to build 1000 rooms. Some people on this thread think a 50 story hotel is some extravagant pipe dream fantasy, however, if the market study is favorable to build a convention hotel, a tall one will get built and financed through a very professional and reputable developer. While I doubt the hotel will be a masterpiece, the developer will certainly want to build something with at least some design significance. And it will be very efficient for its users. To say a 50 story hotel can't be efficient defies logic when there are dozens and dozens of hotels that tall worldwide.

From what I heard, NO ONE wants a repeat of the design fiasco of the current Hilton ( which many of you may not remember created an uproar for both the horrendous design and its size). There is momentum to do this hotel right. There are developers interested in building it. The real issue in this convention center hotel discussion is whether the market study will be favorable or unfavorable to its feasibility. That will decide if its built.

[Nick]

The reason this subject and a couple others attract lots of sarcasm is because you have the same several people saying "I think Thing A is going to happen because I think it's going to happen" and then several posters saying "Probably not, because of X, Y, and Z" and then the response "No, because I think Thing A is going to happen". It makes for funny reading, or super inane reading, depending how seriously you take it.

[Avian]

Of the four interested developers I've heard about, the shortest scheme is about 50 stories. But who knows what two more years will bring?

[kregger22]

Any word on who the developers are? Pictures of these "schemes" by chance?

[kregger22]

When does this market study finish so the results are known?