Century Plaza / Convention Hotel rumoring (archive)

[mrcity]

Yes,The year was 1985, and NASA launches the last of America's deep space probes. In a freak mishap, Ranger 3 and its pilot, Captain William "Buck" Rogers, are blown out of their trajectory into an orbit which freezes his life support systems, and returns Buck Rogers to Earth, 500 years later.....For the next Super Bowl in Minneapolis......

[MS3]

Your right it was 89' the Super Bowl was here, not 85'. I was just a young kid. Wow that seamed so long ago

[mplsjaromir]

Minneapolis hosted the Superbowl in 1992. For the geniuses

[spearson]

^^ Yeah, it was Washington VS. Buffalo...

Maybe you're thinking of the MLB Allstar game, which was in 1985 at the dome.

[Nick]

I'm going to defuse this unnecessarily tense conversation with these beautiful works of art:

[Minneboy]

I actually attended that game. For free as I walked up and down those aisles with trays of pop. Was I ever in shape back then.

[RailBaronYarr]

I was also a young kid, but still remember it being 1992 (and a very quick Google search can confirm that)

Best halftime show of all time, I reckon...

Here's a question to the 'build it and the people will come crowd' claiming we'll be happy after we have it. 5 years after we hosted the 1992 Superbowl, were we glad we had it? As early as July 28, 1998 (16 whopping years after it opened, and 6 years after hte Superbowl), Red McCombs stating the Vikings needed a new stadium to be competitive, and fans and local residents began clamoring for it. The MSFC put together a stadium renovation plan in 1999 that would have used public funds. Another couple years later and we have a government appointed task-force surrounding a new stadium.

So no, I don't think 5 years after we host 1 Superbowl (as Matt says, a once in a generation thing for a city like Minneapolis) everyone in our area will still be so glad we have it. I don't think the average MSP resident will be super thrilled that we have a 1,000 sqft hotel room, either, or even be aware of the amount to which it helped secure a Superbowl or Final Four, and certainly won't be able to make a realistic tradeoff between the public subsidy and the benefit to them or the community...

[min-chi-cbus]

I was also a young kid, but still remember it being 1992 (and a very quick Google search can confirm that)

Best halftime show of all time, I reckon...

Here's a question to the 'build it and the people will come crowd' claiming we'll be happy after we have it. 5 years after we hosted the 1992 Superbowl, were we glad we had it? As early as July 28, 1998 (16 whopping years after it opened, and 6 years after hte Superbowl), Red McCombs stating the Vikings needed a new stadium to be competitive, and fans and local residents began clamoring for it. The MSFC put together a stadium renovation plan in 1999 that would have used public funds. Another couple years later and we have a government appointed task-force surrounding a new stadium.

So no, I don't think 5 years after we host 1 Superbowl (as Matt says, a once in a generation thing for a city like Minneapolis) everyone in our area will still be so glad we have it. I don't think the average MSP resident will be super thrilled that we have a 1,000 sqft hotel room, either, or even be aware of the amount to which it helped secure a Superbowl or Final Four, and certainly won't be able to make a realistic tradeoff between the public subsidy and the benefit to them or the community...

Who gets excited about a 1,000 SF hotel room? I suppose if you stayed in such a large room you may be excited....

[FISHMANPET]

I'd love downtown to have a bit more supply of larger hotel rooms without all the luxury bloat, but that's just because sometimes I like to get a hotel room and have people over to party. A little change of pace from drinking at home.

[RailBaronYarr]

Welp, big gulps, huh? I feel dumb.

[Avian]

....Avian's analysis strikes me as rather backwards. If Tampa or Phoenix has a lot of rooms for warm weather seekers in the winter as described, with 90% occupancy in winter months, then it's the perfect place for those types of events. The hotel rooms are priced a little higher and/or are booked a little sooner, so the warm weather seekers head to other cities (substitute goods in economics). This creates constant public revenue (as Avian notes) and likely without subsidy. Isn't that GOOD? Isn't it foolish to "invest" $100 million on a facility the market does not need, simply so it can have high spikes of positive economic impact interspersed among a giant sucking sound known as public debt service?...

The point of the article I read is that yes, the warm weather seekers are displaced by SB people, but not to other Tampa hotels. They go to other cities. So Tampa, Houston, New Orleans, etc. do not get the same "bump" in business that Minneapolis would benefit from.

Let me repeat, I'm not advocating for a public subsidy, I'm just pointing out some of the nuances here And I'm also not in any way saying that one event like the SB is justification for a new hotel.

The story in MinnPost today was interesting. It notes that Minneapolis has less than half the number of hotel rooms within a 1/2 mile of the CC than either Denver or Indianapolis.

[RailBaronYarr]

....Avian's analysis strikes me as rather backwards. If Tampa or Phoenix has a lot of rooms for warm weather seekers in the winter as described, with 90% occupancy in winter months, then it's the perfect place for those types of events. The hotel rooms are priced a little higher and/or are booked a little sooner, so the warm weather seekers head to other cities (substitute goods in economics). This creates constant public revenue (as Avian notes) and likely without subsidy. Isn't that GOOD? Isn't it foolish to "invest" $100 million on a facility the market does not need, simply so it can have high spikes of positive economic impact interspersed among a giant sucking sound known as public debt service?...

The point of the article I read is that yes, the warm weather seekers are displaced by SB people, but not to other Tampa hotels. They go to other cities. So Tampa, Houston, New Orleans, etc. do not get the same "bump" in business that Minneapolis would benefit from.

Let me repeat, I'm not advocating for a public subsidy, I'm just pointing out some of the nuances here And I'm also not in any way saying that one event like the SB is justification for a new hotel.

The story in MinnPost today was interesting. It notes that Minneapolis has less than half the number of hotel rooms within a 1/2 mile of the CC than either Denver or Indianapolis.

I think Matt is saying that's still a good thing for Tampa. They have natural capacity for an event like this, host it with a slight bump in tourism vs what they would typically see, and don't have empty hotel rooms the rest of the year as a result of over-building hotels (with public subsidy like us or probably other cities) to fill a once a decade Superbowl/Final Four. That capacity would allow them to host normal tourists AND Superbowl guests, but be empty 99% of the other days.. either being a waste of capital if left empty or bringing down aggregate hotel prices due to over-supply. Which is bad in the long-run for Tampa (or whoever) as well as any other cities that could act as substitute goods whenever those cities host a Superbowl.

[MS3]

The more research I do on other downtown's in this country, with the amount of hotel rooms they have downtown, the more surprised I am that Minneapolis is so low. For our size we have the fewest amount, by far. Which explains why so much research over the last several years is being done to justify a 1000 room hotel near the CC. I would be curious to see how much arm twisting it took for all these other cities to build 1000 room hotels. My guess is not much. At the rate this is going on, studies will conclude in 2050, with a final verdict of yes, lets build it, since New richmond Wisconsin just surpassed our hotel room count in downtown Minneapolis.

[RailBaronYarr]

Keep in mind we have 2 downtowns for our MSA, which is both very cool but also a hindrance to having one centralized place of value, hotels, etc. What is the hotel room count in the core of both our cities? Throw in the Mall of America, which is also trying to be a mini-convention-land with the Radisson Blu and future developments. My take? I don't understand why we're fighting so hard on an uphill battle for mid-sized conventions against cities that naturally have very nice weather year-round and tourist destinations nearby because of it.

[Avian]

I wouldn't call Houston, Dallas, New Orleans or Tampa cities with "nice weather year-round." Houston is downright horrible in August. I think we have a negative mindset regarding our weather just because of winter. But for 6-7 months Minneapolis is actually a very nice place to live and to visit.

[John]

I wouldn't call Houston, Dallas, New Orleans or Tampa cities with "nice weather year-round." Houston is downright horrible in August. I think we have a negative mindset regarding our weather just because of winter. But for 6-7 months Minneapolis is actually a very nice place to live and to visit.

This is an excellent point. I was in Atlanta in August (many years ago) and you couldn't go outside because of the terrible humidity and heat. The streets were barren of pedestrians. No skyway system to move around downtown comfortably. People in the south spend the majority of their time (in the summer months) indoors with the AC on high. Then in the winter these cities have huge rainstorms and a bit farther north in (Dallas) ice storms etc. The argument that our weather is a reason not to build a large convention center hotel is bogus.

[MNdible]

But for 6-7 months Minneapolis is actually a very nice place to live and to visit.

This is true, but people who haven't visited Minneapolis think we have snow on the ground in June, which only happens occasionally.

As for the hotel itself, I could see that some level of subsidy for a project like this might be justifiable. My understanding is that the city actually made out pretty well on their investment in the Hilton project. But given other things that would give greater benefit, and other things that are public sector, not private sector investments, I just can't support the recommendations from the study.

In addition, I think the proposed site is unfortunate. It's very close to the convention center, but too far from the core of downtown, making it too dependent on mercurial convention business.

[MS3]

Don't forget about Phoenix. They recently added a 1000 room hotel (with great gladness I heard) and its 110 degrees there 4 months of the year (roughly the length of our winter). Yes, weather has nothing to do with this hotel I agree. It's also been said that this hotel would be over 50% vacant every night, unless there is a major event here to fill it. So I did some searching on what the average vacancy rate among large hotels in downtown metros is on any given night other than a big event night. Anyone want to guess what the results were, or find out for themselves?

[RailBaronYarr]

I'm not doubting that weather is subjective and places like Houston are downright unbearable late May-August, but I would bet that the average American sees MN's winter (we define winter as late November through March, many might say early November through April) as worse than Houston or Phoenix's summer. People pay good money to visit Las Vegas in the summer despite it averaging 100+ pretty much every day, and tourist numbers I'm sure support this fact. People can tolerate it because it's a dry heat, and honestly not much hotter than wherever they came from. Compare that to what people perceive is the difference between wherever they're from and MN in the winter months. I love MN and think that people who live here and complain and people who've never been but assume it's Siberia are all ridiculous, but the fact is that perception is oftentimes reality.

A 1,000 room hotel might give extra capacity, skyways might help try to sell the place a little, but we shouldn't try to be something we're not - a warm weather city that is suited to host large conventions in the fall and spring when weather is mild and comfortable to fill up hotel capacity and large swathes of tourists in the summer months when everyone is on break.

[mnmike]

But for 6-7 months Minneapolis is actually a very nice place to live and to visit.

This is true, but people who haven't visited Minneapolis think we have snow on the ground in June, which only happens occasionally.

That was sarcasm, right? There has NEVER been snow on the ground in Minneapolis in June. The weather this spring is about as bad as it gets! lol.