Century Plaza / Convention Hotel rumoring (archive)

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min-chi-cbus
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Re: 330 South 12th

Postby min-chi-cbus » September 4th, 2012, 6:54 am

Is no one else upset about losing another older building? I'd rather have the hotel built on a surface parking lot.
That, or just keep the SHELL of the building and use it as a (very) nice street-side fascade and entry-point for hotellers. Those first 4-6 floors could also be condos or apartments, if the developer were interested in mixed-use ideas, but again, all I want is the shell.

min-chi-cbus
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Re: 330 South 12th

Postby min-chi-cbus » September 4th, 2012, 6:58 am

You're more than entitled to your opinion, even if I'm not sure how you got it.

Pittsburgh only has three surface level parking lots available downtown for development-- one on Grant, one on 4th, one behind the Human Services Bldg. by 1st Ave. Cincy I admit has more, but not nearly to the degree of Minneapolis.

Remember that #1: downtown Pittsburgh has approximately the same square footage of office space as downtown Minneapolis on about half of the geographic footprint, and #2: there are a number of blocks split between 2-4 low or mid-rises that are difficult to develop, because they are split between different ownership groups. There is nowhere near the advantage of building out there that there is in Minneapolis. In order to justify obtaining a full city block for redevelopment in downtown Pittsburgh (the blocks are so small that skyscrapers rarely share them), you would *have* to be willing to build upwards.
Where did you come up with this estimate? I'd be willing to wager that the CBD of both cities are either similar in office concentration, or Minneapolis is MORE dense. I only say this because in Minneapolis skyways connect everything and the core was built to be very close together. I realize companies like the StarTribune or Valspar aren't in the CBD and can skew the data slightly though.

min-chi-cbus
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Re: 330 South 12th

Postby min-chi-cbus » September 4th, 2012, 7:01 am

The base will have to fill the whole block in order to make large continuous ballroom space with ample service areas. I would expect 4 or 5 stories of that. After that it's fair game to the shape of the floors.
All the more reason to keep the current building or the shell........That's exactly the same height!

min-chi-cbus
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Re: 330 South 12th

Postby min-chi-cbus » September 4th, 2012, 7:04 am

Austin Texas is building a 1000 room convention center hotel of 50 stories. Its not the greatest design, but it looks a heck of a lot better than our Hilton! lol!
Image
Ah yes.....Texas downtowns.....gotta love it! A 50 story building surrounded by......[crickets]. How does this work in Texas cities? In Houston or Dallas I often can see the lobby of a 70 story building from a skyline shot (miles away) -- meaning they aren't surrounded by much -- meaning I have no idea how the developer determined that the land value was so high on that one block to build a 70 story tower, but on the block right next to it the value is worthless (apparently).

Sorry, personal rant about TX downtowns!

min-chi-cbus
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Re: 330 South 12th

Postby min-chi-cbus » September 4th, 2012, 7:10 am

I worked in the Piper Jaffray now Campbell Mithun Tower - the surface parking lot immediately south is almost completely undeveloped - a small apartment building and the League of Catholic Women are mid block on 9th Street. That block has a few owners and has been kicked around for at least 20 years... At this point - the market is shifting again to mixed use buildings (more internationally, but more common here now that the economy is triggering new buildings). It might be more likely that the convention hotel will need significant underground parking, substantial meeting space for conventions, smaller conferences, formal events etc. Additionally putting residences (either apartments or "hotel condos") in hotel projects will likely continue here as we see new buildings proposed. It would not be unthinkable to have a full lot development on a block like the site between 3rd and 2nd Avenues and 9th and 10th Streets be multi-use. Meet Minneapolis is wanting the next major hotel to be very close to the convention center (like a block or maybe 2) - they have said that competitively centers across the country are expanding the other amenities to make the destination more attractive.

My guess is that any developer wants a cleared site with only one or maybe a couple lot owners and is a full block. They are going to want the city to cough up a lot for the underground ramp (think of almost any building in the city built in the last decade or 2...)... The challenge may be some of the new shifting forcus on the DTE/New Vikings Stadium area. That is quickly moving up in terms of city priorities... They don't want to see a Metrodome 2.
Do you think that the fact that the City of Minneapolis owns the Convention Center and is still using its tax revenue to fund projects (like the Vikings stadium) will have ANY impact on this development -- good or bad? Like for example, would the City (which is going to likely be paying for a large portion of this project, according to the article) do something here to maximize its revenues in effort to make headway for paying for the new Vikings stadium? Would/should they be closer together? Etc.....

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Nathan
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Re: 330 South 12th

Postby Nathan » September 4th, 2012, 9:33 am

If they don't preserve some of the building, they will be tearing it down over my dead body. SERIOUSLY!!! What is wrong with people in this city!? We have all of these lots and we choose to tear down yet ANOTHER historic building!? SO WHAT it costs a lot to renovate. They ARE what makes the street great and varied and historic. And the stonework is so cool :/

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fehler
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Re: 330 South 12th

Postby fehler » September 4th, 2012, 10:08 am

Some great old pictures of Century Plaza/Vocational School:

https://secure.mpls.k12.mn.us/mpshistor ... Vocational

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fehler
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Re: 330 South 12th

Postby fehler » September 4th, 2012, 10:16 am

Looking at these pictures of the 1985 construction and at Google Maps, I wonder if this building already has a "false middle"? Could the new, vaunted 1000 room hotel fit in the center, and the exterior building space be retrofitted for the normal office/conference/whatever space hotels usually have?

John
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Re: 330 South 12th

Postby John » September 4th, 2012, 12:08 pm

It would be fantastic if they preserved and incorporated some of the art deco elements of the current building into the new hotel. And I think there will be concern by the Central Lutheran Church that the hotel does not completely overwhelm it. Otherwise, they will have one million Lutherans in Minnesota up in arms!

seanrichardryan
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Re: 330 South 12th

Postby seanrichardryan » September 4th, 2012, 1:07 pm

The building has recieved many changes. The former main entrance is now the entrance to a parking garage. I think the 1985 changes were actually its conversion from a school to Hennepin county office space. It seemed like framing for a theater, which was not added then. You get an idea of the impact windows can have on a building too. Bleh.
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mattaudio
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Re: 330 South 12th

Postby mattaudio » September 4th, 2012, 1:31 pm

It looks like the whole core of the school was removed and replaced with a parking ramp, and the outside corridors/space were kept and remodeled.

I'd rather see them tear down the Leamington ramp and build a hotel there...

Tcmetro
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Re: 330 South 12th

Postby Tcmetro » September 4th, 2012, 2:07 pm

This building looks horrible in comparison to the original school. So many changes have been made, and not for the better. It looks pretty bad right now, and I certainly would not miss it.

seanrichardryan
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Re: 330 South 12th

Postby seanrichardryan » September 4th, 2012, 3:20 pm

They can save the facade like at the Penfield and replace the innards with a 25 story toothpick tower of cementious fiberboard siding and magic-paks. Could a skilled photoshopper make my dream a reality?
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min-chi-cbus
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Re: 330 South 12th

Postby min-chi-cbus » September 4th, 2012, 3:35 pm

They can save the facade like at the Penfield and replace the innards with a 25 story toothpick tower of cementious fiberboard siding and magic-paks. Could a skilled photoshopper make my dream a reality?
If it's to be a "toothpick", it'd have to be at least 40-50 floors then, however....Now THAT's a dream!

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Nick
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Re: 330 South 12th

Postby Nick » September 5th, 2012, 10:31 pm

Here's a more detailed article from the Strib:

http://www.startribune.com/business/168708846.html
Plan for 1,000-room downtown Mpls. hotel surfaces again

Every few years, talk surfaces about building a giant hotel next to the Minneapolis Convention Center -- and this year is no exception.

Hennepin County has hired a local firm, Nelson, Tietz & Hoye Inc., to study the feasibility of building a 1,000-room hotel on the 2.6-acre site that is now home to the Century Plaza office building at 330 S. 12th St. If built, the hotel would usurp the nearby Hilton Minneapolis, which has 821 rooms, as the largest hotel in the downtown core.

[...]
Gotta point out that I really enjoy this:
Nelson, Tietz & Hoye conducted a similar study in 2007, which followed a separate study in 2004.
Boy, good thing we do all these studies, otherwise a lot of people would feel silly for dishing out $80,000 for grad school :lol:
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seanrichardryan
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Re: 330 South 12th

Postby seanrichardryan » September 5th, 2012, 11:43 pm

A few other key points, it sounds like the county will be out of the space by 2014. Where will juvi move?? Also, a major hotelier might be hard to find in such a well-represented market. Omni would be great though.
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mattaudio
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Re: 330 South 12th

Postby mattaudio » September 6th, 2012, 8:56 am

While the market is well represented, I'm sure certain chains would see it as an opportunity to move their brand to a new flagship property. Hyatt and Raddison have seen upgrades recently, and the Westin is relatively new, but maybe we could see a Marriott move? Or maybe a primary brand would take over this hotel and the vacated space could be remodeled into a St. Regis, Waldorf Astoria, Ritz, etc depending on the chain.

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Re: 330 South 12th

Postby Unity77 » September 6th, 2012, 9:18 am

If this idea comes to fruition, hopefully we will see something outside the Minneapolis norm of late, which is way too conservative and bland. This is a convention hotel so, not only should the interior be well above average, but so too should the exterior. Furthermore, wouldn't it be a better idea to push for this hotel to be built on the current Holiday Inn Express and Second Church of Christ Scientist sites?

Largest hotels in the Midwest:
Chicago - Hyatt Regency Hotel - 2,019 rooms
Detroit - Marriott Renaissance Center - 1,298 rooms
St Louis - Renaissance Grand Hotel - 1,078 rooms
Indianapolis - J.W. Marriott Indianapolis - 1,005 Rooms
Kansas City - Downtown KC Marriott - 983 rooms
Cincinnati - The Regal - 888 rooms
Sandusky - Kalahari Resort - 884-rooms
Minneapolis - Minneapolis Hilton & Towers - 821 rooms

MNdible
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Re: 330 South 12th

Postby MNdible » September 6th, 2012, 10:26 am

If you look through that list, most of these hotels are nothing special. Anyway, the JW Marriott in Indianapolis is the one I keep thinkng of as a likely model for this development. It looks sleek and snazzy, but it's basically the same idea as our Hilton, just with a touch more pinache.

I've also been rolling around in my head whether or not they could make it work on the Ivy Tower block. I agree it's a much better location (funny that one block would make that much difference!). Obviously, site assembly becomes more difficult at that location -- multiple landowners, several of whom probably aren't willing sellers.

nordeast homer
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Re: 330 South 12th

Postby nordeast homer » September 6th, 2012, 11:03 am

The church only uses one small portion of their building and, I'm guessing, wouldn't mind unloading the property for the right price. The hotel has been quoted before as saying they don't want to give up their property because it is very profitable and they have a leg up on everyone else with the proximity to the convention center.
I was just talking over the county facility with my brother and we still can't figure out what is so special about the building that some people are so offended by taking it down. It really isn't that special or significant. Just because it's old doesn't mean it's precious...just look at me, I think there's a line of people that would like to see me gone for a newer model.


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