City of Minneapolis Office Building - 501 4th Ave S - 11 stories / 171'

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
Tyler
Foshay Tower
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Joined: June 1st, 2012, 10:10 am

Re: City of Minneapolis Offices Consolidation

Postby Tyler » September 2nd, 2016, 2:25 pm

martykoessel wrote:The City always has more needs than can be addressed by its budget and shouldn't be tearing down revenue-generating buildings unless justified by a thorough cost-benefit analysis.
Is it naive to assume this has already happened?
Towns!

VAStationDude
US Bank Plaza
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Re: City of Minneapolis Offices Consolidation

Postby VAStationDude » September 2nd, 2016, 2:39 pm

The ramp is 40+ years old. Presumably the city would make a bundle from selling off fire station number 1 site and can bond the cost of this building at insanely low rates. It's a good idea.

Silophant
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Re: City of Minneapolis Offices Consolidation

Postby Silophant » September 2nd, 2016, 3:08 pm

The city could, presumably, include public parking in this building and stack their offices on top.

eastharrietguy
City Center
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Re: City of Minneapolis Offices Consolidation

Postby eastharrietguy » September 4th, 2016, 2:50 pm

Downtown has lost 000s of parking spaces due to development of light rail and loss of vacant surface lots - which is a very good thing. We want to see vacant lots developed into vibrant spaces for residents, workers, etc. But I am concerned that loss of 1,300 spaces will put a great deal of pressure on the parking supply. While there are lots of folks who think this is a good thing, and that people should be biking/walking/taking mass transit, there will be another group of people who will not use those modes of transit and be frustrated by the difficulty and expense of parking downtown. It will be another reason for firms to resist moving downtown - and others who decide to leave downtown (I know of one small consulting firm who moved to the suburbs in 2015 because their staff, including mostly millennials, wanted free parking) as well as frustrating people going to restaurants or attending sporting events. This ramp is full or nearly so weekdays most of the time, as is the Court ramp next door. Where will these workers park in the future? Perhaps the suburbs. I believe we should encourage alternative modes of transit, but also accommodate the desires of the majority of folks who choose to drive downtown. As we continue to lose parking, we risk making downtown less desireable for many people.

grrdanko
Nicollet Mall
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Re: City of Minneapolis Offices Consolidation

Postby grrdanko » September 4th, 2016, 5:30 pm

eastharrietguy wrote:Downtown has lost 000s of parking spaces due to development of light rail and loss of vacant surface lots - which is a very good thing. We want to see vacant lots developed into vibrant spaces for residents, workers, etc. But I am concerned that loss of 1,300 spaces will put a great deal of pressure on the parking supply. While there are lots of folks who think this is a good thing, and that people should be biking/walking/taking mass transit, there will be another group of people who will not use those modes of transit and be frustrated by the difficulty and expense of parking downtown. It will be another reason for firms to resist moving downtown - and others who decide to leave downtown (I know of one small consulting firm who moved to the suburbs in 2015 because their staff, including mostly millennials, wanted free parking) as well as frustrating people going to restaurants or attending sporting events. This ramp is full or nearly so weekdays most of the time, as is the Court ramp next door. Where will these workers park in the future? Perhaps the suburbs. I believe we should encourage alternative modes of transit, but also accommodate the desires of the majority of folks who choose to drive downtown. As we continue to lose parking, we risk making downtown less desireable for many people.

I think the fear of lost parking is way more of a perception problem than an actual problem. If you hate yourself read the Star Tribune comments section after any story about new development. You'll see dozens of comments from people that there is nowhere to park and that they will never come downtown because it's impossible or expensive to park their car.

The reality is that we have an abundance of parking. Street parking is free on evenings a weekends. Almost every new development is a net gain for parking. Look at the Kraus Anderson redevelopment. There were less than 100 parking spaces with most of the block being a surface lot. When this is done there will be almost 600 parking spaces in underground structured parking. For the Downtown East developments we went from having several hundred parking spaces in surface lots to about 2000 new parking spaces. The Thresher Square development will have about 400 parking spaces when it's complete up from less than 20. Marq4 has over 200 structured spaces. The Nic on 5th has so much extra parking that they sell monthly contracts to the public. The new buildings on Nicollet will have many many parking spaces too.

I think we need to change the perception that parking is hard and that new developments mean there is nowhere to park. We are doing ourselves a disservice by letting that perception continue. We can have walkable, vibrant streets and have sufficient parking. New buildings bring us more of both.

MattW
Union Depot
Posts: 375
Joined: June 13th, 2015, 5:05 pm

Re: City of Minneapolis Offices Consolidation

Postby MattW » September 4th, 2016, 5:31 pm

grrdanko wrote:
eastharrietguy wrote:Downtown has lost 000s of parking spaces due to development of light rail and loss of vacant surface lots - which is a very good thing. We want to see vacant lots developed into vibrant spaces for residents, workers, etc. But I am concerned that loss of 1,300 spaces will put a great deal of pressure on the parking supply. While there are lots of folks who think this is a good thing, and that people should be biking/walking/taking mass transit, there will be another group of people who will not use those modes of transit and be frustrated by the difficulty and expense of parking downtown. It will be another reason for firms to resist moving downtown - and others who decide to leave downtown (I know of one small consulting firm who moved to the suburbs in 2015 because their staff, including mostly millennials, wanted free parking) as well as frustrating people going to restaurants or attending sporting events. This ramp is full or nearly so weekdays most of the time, as is the Court ramp next door. Where will these workers park in the future? Perhaps the suburbs. I believe we should encourage alternative modes of transit, but also accommodate the desires of the majority of folks who choose to drive downtown. As we continue to lose parking, we risk making downtown less desireable for many people.

I think the fear of lost parking is way more of a perception problem than an actual problem. If you hate yourself read the Star Tribune comments section after any story about new development. You'll see dozens of comments from people that there is nowhere to park and that they will never come downtown because it's impossible or expensive to park their car.

The reality is that we have an abundance of parking. Street parking is free on evenings a weekends. Almost every new development is a net gain for parking. Look at the Kraus Anderson redevelopment. There were less than 100 parking spaces with most of the block being a surface lot. When this is done there will be almost 600 parking spaces in underground structured parking. For the Downtown East developments we went from having several hundred parking spaces in surface lots to about 2000 new parking spaces. The Thresher Square development will have about 400 parking spaces when it's complete up from less than 20. Marq4 has over 200 structured spaces. The Nic on 5th has so much extra parking that they sell monthly contracts to the public. The new buildings on Nicollet will have many many parking spaces too.

I think we need to change the perception that parking is hard and that new developments mean there is nowhere to park. We are doing ourselves a disservice by letting that perception continue. We can have walkable, vibrant streets and have sufficient parking. New buildings bring us more of both.
<mic drop>

intercomnut
Rice Park
Posts: 406
Joined: April 23rd, 2015, 1:04 pm

Re: City of Minneapolis Offices Consolidation

Postby intercomnut » September 4th, 2016, 11:27 pm

grrdanko wrote:Street parking is free on evenings a weekends.
I agree with the argument you're making, but I want to point out that street parking in Downtown Minneapolis is metered until 11pm seven days a week.

grrdanko
Nicollet Mall
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Joined: December 21st, 2014, 3:14 pm
Location: Downtown

Re: City of Minneapolis Offices Consolidation

Postby grrdanko » September 5th, 2016, 8:14 am

intercomnut wrote:
grrdanko wrote:Street parking is free on evenings a weekends.
I agree with the argument you're making, but I want to point out that street parking in Downtown Minneapolis is metered until 11pm seven days a week.
I would like to respectfully say you're wrong.

I'd invite you to look at the meter rates and hours map.

http://cityoflakes.maps.arcgis.com/apps ... 58bf46a2f5

intercomnut
Rice Park
Posts: 406
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Re: City of Minneapolis Offices Consolidation

Postby intercomnut » September 5th, 2016, 9:18 am

grrdanko wrote:
intercomnut wrote:
grrdanko wrote:Street parking is free on evenings a weekends.
I agree with the argument you're making, but I want to point out that street parking in Downtown Minneapolis is metered until 11pm seven days a week.
I would like to respectfully say you're wrong.

I'd invite you to look at the meter rates and hours map.

http://cityoflakes.maps.arcgis.com/apps ... 58bf46a2f5
Thanks for the link!

It looks to me that about half the meters are Monday-Friday 8-6 and half are daily 8-10 or 11. So I guess we were each half right!

eastharrietguy
City Center
Posts: 36
Joined: December 28th, 2014, 11:46 pm

Re: City of Minneapolis Offices Consolidation

Postby eastharrietguy » September 5th, 2016, 8:59 pm

I'm not saying there is a shortage of parking NOW or that new development will cause a parking shortage, I am commenting only on the removal of 1,300 spaces as a result of the City tearing down the ramp to consolidate office space. Regarding the new spaces added to downtown, these are to serve the developments that are being built on the former parking lots, they are not meant to add to the general-use parking supply. Downtown East, for example... there will be 5,000 employees in the Wells Fargo towers, and additional employees in the two Ryan office buildings (one under construction, one planned) in that same area. Assuming that one-third of them will drive to work (which is a low assumption), that translates to a need for 1,667 spaces from the Wells Fargo towers alone.

PhilmerPhil
Moderator
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Re: City of Minneapolis Offices Consolidation

Postby PhilmerPhil » September 5th, 2016, 10:38 pm

I dunno. In my own very simplistic point of view, 1300 less spaces = 1300 less car commuters = 1300 less cars that can be pointed to when we try to make downtown streets more attractive by reducing lanes and adding greenery = more inviting downtown = Good overall

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
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Re: City of Minneapolis Offices Consolidation

Postby mattaudio » September 6th, 2016, 8:23 am

As they say in Economics 101, "A shortage is temporary but scarcity is forever."

People say "parking shortage" when they really mean "parking scarcity."

If there truly ever is a "shortage" of parking, the market will step in and offer it at the clearing price.

Silophant
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Re: City of Minneapolis Offices Consolidation

Postby Silophant » September 6th, 2016, 8:35 am

If the parking fees from this ramp are a significant source of revenue, the city could pretty easily include public parking as a component of the building. Maybe not 1300 spaces, but even three parking levels would provide some 500 spaces on a lot this size.

amiller92
Wells Fargo Center
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Re: City of Minneapolis Offices Consolidation

Postby amiller92 » September 6th, 2016, 8:58 am

eastharrietguy wrote:But I am concerned that loss of 1,300 spaces will put a great deal of pressure on the parking supply.
We just added 1,610 new ramp spots a few blocks away too. So that'd be a net gain of 300?
frustrating people going to restaurants or attending sporting events.
The only time parking capacity is near full is during weekdays (and even then, I've never had trouble finding no-contract parking when I occasionally drive). We don't need to keep any extra parking for people going out for dinner. The ramps are empty then.

amiller92
Wells Fargo Center
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Re: City of Minneapolis Offices Consolidation

Postby amiller92 » September 6th, 2016, 9:01 am

eastharrietguy wrote:I Assuming that one-third of them will drive to work (which is a low assumption), that translates to a need for 1,667 spaces from the Wells Fargo towers alone.
And there are more new spaces than that, so...

eastharrietguy
City Center
Posts: 36
Joined: December 28th, 2014, 11:46 pm

Re: City of Minneapolis Offices Consolidation

Postby eastharrietguy » September 7th, 2016, 6:01 pm

Yes, but my estimated do not include the need from the two new Ryan office buildings. And in any case, the addition is not enough to replace 1,300 lost spaces.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
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Re: City of Minneapolis Offices Consolidation

Postby mattaudio » September 7th, 2016, 6:07 pm

Ya but the bulk of people working in those towers already worked in other towers downtown.

Silophant
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Re: City of Minneapolis Offices Consolidation

Postby Silophant » September 7th, 2016, 6:18 pm

Also, if WF subsidizes Metropasses, I would guess a 1/3rd driving modeshare is high. Among my coworkers, maybe 1 in 5 drives to work on a regular basis. If they don't subsidize Metropasses... maybe they should?

HiawathaGuy
Wells Fargo Center
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Joined: June 4th, 2012, 12:03 pm

Re: City of Minneapolis Offices Consolidation

Postby HiawathaGuy » September 8th, 2016, 7:52 am

mattaudio wrote:Ya but the bulk of people working in those towers already worked in other towers downtown.
They consolidated more than just downtown offices - so that's not entirely factual.
Silophant wrote:If they don't subsidize Metropasses... maybe they should?
To the best of my knowledge, based on a friend who works at WF, they subsidize metropasses 100%.

twinkess
Rice Park
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Re: City of Minneapolis Offices Consolidation

Postby twinkess » September 8th, 2016, 7:58 am

grrdanko wrote:...Look at the Kraus Anderson redevelopment. There were less than 100 parking spaces with most of the block being a surface lot. When this is done there will be almost 600 parking spaces in underground structured parking.
I'm not taking a side on the argument but I'd just like to correct these numbers. There were 250 spots in the K/A lot. 100 belonging to K/A employees and 150ish for public parking. Of the new buildings 566 spaces, at least 300 will be taken by the 300 apartments (unless they're going below 1 spot/unit). I would imagine K/A is going to retain the same number of reserved spots for their employees. In addition now there are 140 hotel rooms on the property. Practically this is at most a wash in the number of public parking spots for this block.


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