U.S. Bank Stadium

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J2K
Metrodome
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Joined: January 10th, 2013, 5:11 pm

Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Postby J2K » September 5th, 2014, 11:05 am

I heard a story that they already placed the order for the standard glass a while ago so not sure how that would work to change it now. I will admit from a distance it really does not look bad at all.

SixOneTwo
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 115
Joined: July 26th, 2012, 9:59 am

Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Postby SixOneTwo » September 5th, 2014, 11:15 am

This is correct; the glass has been ordered. This issue could have and should have been raised earlier.

HiawathaGuy
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1636
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Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Postby HiawathaGuy » September 5th, 2014, 11:28 am

This issue could have and should have been raised earlier.
I believe it was raised earlier. And I also believe that the Audubon Society believed that MSFA was going to use the glass they were recommending. It wasn't until talks broke down last month that this became more public.

Regardless, it's a shame that the truth behind not using the glass was so easily lied about... the claim was money, but the truth was aesthetics.

IllogicalJake
Target Field
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Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Postby IllogicalJake » September 5th, 2014, 11:45 am

I heard a story that they already placed the order for the standard glass a while ago so not sure how that would work to change it now
True, the glass is ordered now. But I believe it can still be changed by applying the texture to the glass externally - but it's possible that the labor involved could cost more than just doing it in the first place.
I believe it was raised earlier. And I also believe that the Audubon Society believed that MSFA was going to use the glass they were recommending. It wasn't until talks broke down last month that this became more public.
Yep. The Audubon Society was surprised. I don't know if any other project has conflicted this much with the group, but I also don't know how many projects have used this much glass...

I'm not trying to hijack this thread at all, I'm just trying to squash inaccuracies and misconceptions about the bird issue.
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IllogicalJake
Target Field
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Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Postby IllogicalJake » September 5th, 2014, 11:51 am

I didn't even know this - bird-safe glass has been required for all public-funded buildings since 2012. The stadium is an exception.
A 2012 Minnesota law requires all publicly-funded buildings to meet sustainability guidelines, including LEED bird-safety criteria. Technically, the stadium is grandfathered in as an exception, since the project began just before the regulations were passed. “Technically, [MSFA] aren’t required to comply with Minnesota’s Bird Safety Sustainability law,” said Sheppard, “but they aren’t that far away from it. I can’t and I would not ask people to replace glass windows with solid walls, but there are effective patterns that cover less than 8% of the glass surface.”
The Wired article tears into MSFA's arguments better than anything I've seen so far. Lots of research and actual information.
The new stadium (and future Super Bowl Venue of 2018) is built on a spot that, by some estimates, 50% of North America’s migratory birds pass over during spring and fall migration. What would it cost to make the stadium safer for birds? Using ‘fritted” glass, or glass treated with a small pattern to increase visibility, would add $1.1 million to the cost of the stadium. So, for less than 0.1% of the total budget of the stadium, MSFA could avoid a huge PR fumble. (And, you know, not kill birds. )
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mullen
Foshay Tower
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Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Postby mullen » September 5th, 2014, 11:55 am

msfa/team said it was a design issue. they want the clear view corridor into the skyline. it wasn't a financial decision. there was no "lying". they want the clear view corridor to the dt skyline. it was a big selling point of the stadium site. being everthing the metrodome wasn't.

that being said a fritted glass system would create an interesting, ever changing changing aesthetic. especially on a such a huge buildng. buliding would look different at the whims of the time of day and seasons.

Rich
Rice Park
Posts: 408
Joined: June 30th, 2012, 7:12 pm

Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Postby Rich » September 5th, 2014, 11:59 am

it can still be changed by applying the texture to the glass externally
Can this texture be applied after the glass is installed? If so, maybe Audubon can compile some actual stadium-related bird mortality data and use it to convince the MSFA to retrofit the glass in a few years.

IllogicalJake
Target Field
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Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Postby IllogicalJake » September 5th, 2014, 12:10 pm

it can still be changed by applying the texture to the glass externally
Can this texture be applied after the glass is installed? If so, maybe Audubon can compile some actual stadium-related bird mortality data and use it to convince the MSFA to retrofit the glass in a few years.
I don't know for sure - but personally I'd imagine it's possible. It's just a pattern that needs to be applied to the exterior. EDIT to clarify: Fritting is usually inside the glass. I just don't have enough knowledge to know if it can also be applied to the exterior, but I believe it could.
it wasn't a financial decision. there was no "lying".
Also wrong, unfortunately. From the MSFA in July:
We were able to adopt operational guidelines used by other downtown office and residential buildings, we were unable to change the design and do not have the budget to include the $1.1 million needed for bird safe glass.
They specifically say that they do not have the budget...
they want the clear view corridor to the dt skyline. it was a big selling point of the stadium site.
How many times do I have to show that the patterns are nearly invisible? Why are people still acting like this blocks anything? Do I need to post more pictures? :|

The opponents, and even MSFA, are trying to spread as much mistruth around as they can... Dallas' stadium has a wide-open view with fritted glass and you can't even notice.
Last edited by IllogicalJake on September 5th, 2014, 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mullen
Foshay Tower
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Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Postby mullen » September 5th, 2014, 12:20 pm

i'm referring to msfa chair quotes to the press after the last meeting stating it was a design decision. reporter stuck microphone in kelm-helgen's face and that's what she said. aesthetically they don't want the fritted glass.

i don't have an issue and actually it would probably look interesting to have the fritted glass, imo.

IllogicalJake
Target Field
Posts: 513
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Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Postby IllogicalJake » September 5th, 2014, 12:22 pm

The front of the Dallas stadium mentioned before. It used fritted glass for bird safety and LEED certification (because fritting is also energy efficient.) Much higher res here.

Image
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Anondson
IDS Center
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Location: Where West Minneapolis Once Was

Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Postby Anondson » September 5th, 2014, 12:35 pm

OMG THE MURK

mplsjaromir
Wells Fargo Center
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Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Postby mplsjaromir » September 5th, 2014, 12:36 pm

They probably do not want fritted glass because it would make it more difficult for a passerby to see the soft drink and cell phone carrier advertisements inside the stadium.

kirby96
Union Depot
Posts: 335
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Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Postby kirby96 » September 5th, 2014, 1:17 pm

This is one of those situations where even if the bird argument was bogus (and to be clear I believe it is legit), it's mind-boggling the MSFA doesn't just go along for some positive PR now, and more importantly to avoid negative PR later.

Sooner or later a hawk is gonna fly into the stadium on game day, and there's gonna be video of it dying on the plaza all over the news and youtube and commentary on how the bird issue was identified but ignored during construction. That $1.1MM will look pretty cheap at that point...

Rich
Rice Park
Posts: 408
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Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Postby Rich » September 5th, 2014, 1:58 pm

Image

The fritted glass in Dallas' stadium is the almost opaque stuff at left in this photo. The glass to the right is regular old clear glass.

Anondson
IDS Center
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Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Postby Anondson » September 5th, 2014, 2:07 pm

That is different then.

MNdible
is great.
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Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Postby MNdible » September 5th, 2014, 2:42 pm

True frits are ceramic dots that are baked onto the glass surface itself during production. It definitely cannot be done after the glass is installed. I'm surprised that the quoted cost difference is only $1m, because fritting usually significantly increases the cost of glass. As I understand it, the cost of doing the fritting isn't actually that bad, but a great deal of the fritting work is rejected for quality control reasons, meaning that the whole glazing unit is rejected and needs to be re-manufactured.

There may be some films that could be applied to the exterior after the fact, but these are often problematic because they may void the glass warranty or are prone to bubble or otherwise delaminate.

IllogicalJake
Target Field
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Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Postby IllogicalJake » September 5th, 2014, 3:20 pm

Image

The fritted glass in Dallas' stadium is the almost opaque stuff at left in this photo. The glass to the right is regular old clear glass.
That is different then.
I don't think that's true. From what I know – all of the glass is fritted, the more opaque siding is by design, not for bird protection... That more opaque glass is definitely way beyond what's required for bird protection, so it really has me leaning toward "by design."

But I can't find a source to back that up. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

EDIT: Looks like the fritting in that more opaque glass wall are for lighting effects by design, not minimal fritting applied for bird safety like Minnesota would be seeking...
A fritted glass system transitions up the elevation to create a dynamic, ever-changing aesthetic depending on the time of day. At night,va series of internal lights gently wash the glass wall to create a glow across the facade.
Last edited by IllogicalJake on September 5th, 2014, 3:28 pm, edited 6 times in total.
i talk too much. web dev, downtown. admin @ tower.ly

IllogicalJake
Target Field
Posts: 513
Joined: January 30th, 2014, 9:03 am

Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Postby IllogicalJake » September 5th, 2014, 3:20 pm

There may be some films that could be applied to the exterior after the fact, but these are often problematic because they may void the glass warranty or are prone to bubble or otherwise delaminate.
Good to know! Even more reason it really should've just been done right in the first place.
i talk too much. web dev, downtown. admin @ tower.ly

BigIdeasGuy
Union Depot
Posts: 381
Joined: March 27th, 2013, 8:22 am

Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Postby BigIdeasGuy » September 5th, 2014, 6:18 pm

Anyone want to start a pool how may birds will die by crashing into the building the first year it is open?

J2K
Metrodome
Posts: 84
Joined: January 10th, 2013, 5:11 pm

Re: Minnesota Multi Purpose Stadium

Postby J2K » September 6th, 2014, 9:23 am

I'm in on that. Twenty bucks on three birds.


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