U.S. Bank Stadium

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amiller92
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Re: U.S. Bank Stadium

Postby amiller92 » September 13th, 2016, 3:24 pm

Yeah, I don't think there was anything requiring summarization.

For me at least, it's not about the plaza so much. That it's currently unencumbered is a good explanation for why there is temporary fencing there.

But on the south and east sides, there are places with temporary 8 foot fencing right in front of permanent four foot fencing and temporary fencing in places (e.g., near the valet parking entrance) that certainly could have had permanent fencing. It looks terrible and if it needed a fence, why not include one?

Anyway, I'll try to take pictures next time it's set up.

BoredAgain
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Re: U.S. Bank Stadium

Postby BoredAgain » September 13th, 2016, 3:33 pm

Let me clarify.

I think it is a net positive to have the stadium where it is, but maybe we all need to accept that there are some downsides that go with it including the items I listed above. I am still not certain it was a net positive to build and pay for the stadium in the first place.

P.S. It is my personality to argue and counter-argue almost anything with almost everyone. I will even argue both sides of an issue if I persuade my opponent to my original argument.

P.P.S. Thank you for changing the thread title.

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Nick
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Re: U.S. Bank Stadium

Postby Nick » September 13th, 2016, 3:39 pm

*ring ring*

"Hello?"

"Hi, this is beige_box-level mega woke 15 year old Nick on this very topic in a 2006 issue of Popular Science, and:

https://books.google.com/books?id=8F6_7 ... va&f=false

J2K
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Re: U.S. Bank Stadium Construction Updates

Postby J2K » September 13th, 2016, 7:59 pm

BoredAgain wrote:I know the basic arguments for locating the stadium where it is (primarily leveraging existing infrastructure both public and private and questionable claims of economic development), but maybe this is just an excellent reason that they should have been sent to Arden Hills (or wherever).

If the Stadium were built in a "Corn Field" then there would be no roads or bike lanes to block with security walls. There would be no Light Rail line requiring large, unsightly, expensive, and pointless-on-355-days-a-year bridges. There would be no (or at least fewer) massive downtown superblocks with extremely limited pedestrian presence. There would be no temporary security theater to fill any new Public Plaza that could be built if we wanted to.

The city of Minneapolis could have still spent 20 million of its own on a new park and then leveraged bonds to build a parking ramp if they want. Heck, that new parking ramp (the stated driving factor for Wells Fargo) probably cost a lot less than the $150 million that the city chipped in to build the stadium.

But also, how about those "USBank Stadium Construction Updates"... I think it's done.
I'm glad it is where it is. Would you rather have 6 plus blocks of surface parking or the most iconic building in Minneapolis?

VikingFaninMaryland
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Re: U.S. Bank Stadium Construction Updates

Postby VikingFaninMaryland » September 13th, 2016, 8:12 pm

Silophant wrote:You're talking about the New Year's Day Cedar Ave explosion, right? Is there anyone besides alt-right loons that think it was terrorism?
Yes, there are people who are not "right wing loons" and I've sat in meetings on Capitol Hill where the event was discussed in detail. Further, to get a full explanation of the forensic details that could be gleaned from pictures, they brought in an EOD specialist from the UK to run through the blast pictures to explain what happened to include comparable pictures of gas explosions vs small bomb explosions.

Related discussion were with folks from the FBI and related who note the irregularity of events surrounding the investigation.

The theory isn't that it was terrorism, its that someone was possibly making a bomb and it detonated or something like that. The Europeans are were greatly interested because of entities on their watch list.

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Re: U.S. Bank Stadium Construction Updates

Postby VikingFaninMaryland » September 13th, 2016, 8:48 pm

Tiller wrote:I can summarize VikingFan's argument. Having an open Plaza and temporary security equipment/infrastructure (like fencing) allows flexibility; the ability to change the security set up depending on threat levels, the kind of event, the prominence of an event, changing technology (as time passes), whatever. Flexibility is a very tangible and easy to understand benefit. The Plaza not looking like a prison is a bonus. Remember that they're hosting the super bowl here. I wouldn't want that level of security presence to be permanent.
Yes, this pretty much covers it but with the additional point that that temporary heightened security measures are often at the direction of CT experts from FBI, DHS and NCTC and those standards change over time even given the same threat condition. Once requested, the NFL and individual teams can ignore them but . . . should an event happen and it turns out those measures were not adopted, there would be major exposure in civil action. Having said that, the NFL very much seeks out the experts and pretty much does what they say (and gladly). In fact, when the CT folks did a test at FedEx Field (Redskins), the lessons learned were so extensive that the NFL hired the former Chief of DC Police to run their security.

There would be no point to building a permanent infrastructure around today's terror threat posture as the threat itself can recede or the way that it is combated can change. Leaving out buildings like the Pentagon, where, when the threat condition is high, you drive past the building and the are HUMVEEs with 50 cal aimed right at you on the highway along with severe canalizing of people, when I go to Penn Station in NYC, you can see how security measures have at times disrupted the clean lines of the building and the natural flow of people. If you show up at the station and movement is easy and see a few cops and a few lightly armed soldiers, you know the threat level is low. If you show up and there are lines everywhere, the the cops are in full battle rattle, as are the soldiers, and the ATLAS teams are deployed in ninja black, you know something is up.

Long way of saying that the fencing may reflect security issues that are an independent variable from issues regarding the design of the plaza save only that the design would have incorporated current theories on defensible open spaces in an urban area that makes upscaling the security more efficient - but almost never more visually appealing. The current plaza design makes deploying that capability easier than it often is at other older facilities. At the end of the day, however, the visuals of that kind of activity is measured by its functionality, not by its looks and has very little to do with the teams themselves or the facilities or their management.

Re the "long-guns," that usually refers to the sharp shooters (snipers). In that regard, the stadium's open plaza, for an urban area, makes the sharp shooter's firing lanes practically unobstructed along the entire frontage.

ALSO: I stand by my comments on the West Bank explosion (and it was an explosion - methane gas, really?) and don't belong to any political parties or movements. Yes, it can happen anywhere, but there are liability and public interest consequences for not taking proper security measures.

mplsjaromir
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Re: U.S. Bank Stadium

Postby mplsjaromir » September 13th, 2016, 9:12 pm

The "Counter Terrorism Community" are just cynical people who milk the populous' irrational fear of terrorism. Get back to me when the FBI gets a terrorism conviction that doesn't involve paid informants / teenagers / mentally ill folks. Society will back on this era with shame on how bigots who watch too much tv and read too many spy novels were given such power. We waste real resources and ruin lives for nothing.

David Greene
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Re: U.S. Bank Stadium

Postby David Greene » September 13th, 2016, 9:34 pm

+_1

F'in childish filters.

BoredAgain
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Re: U.S. Bank Stadium Construction Updates

Postby BoredAgain » September 13th, 2016, 9:38 pm

J2K wrote:
BoredAgain wrote:I know the basic arguments for locating the stadium where it is (primarily leveraging existing infrastructure both public and private and questionable claims of economic development), but maybe this is just an excellent reason that they should have been sent to Arden Hills (or wherever).

If the Stadium were built in a "Corn Field" then there would be no roads or bike lanes to block with security walls. There would be no Light Rail line requiring large, unsightly, expensive, and pointless-on-355-days-a-year bridges. There would be no (or at least fewer) massive downtown superblocks with extremely limited pedestrian presence. There would be no temporary security theater to fill any new Public Plaza that could be built if we wanted to.

The city of Minneapolis could have still spent 20 million of its own on a new park and then leveraged bonds to build a parking ramp if they want. Heck, that new parking ramp (the stated driving factor for Wells Fargo) probably cost a lot less than the $150 million that the city chipped in to build the stadium.

But also, how about those "USBank Stadium Construction Updates"... I think it's done.
I'm glad it is where it is. Would you rather have 6 plus blocks of surface parking or the most iconic building in Minneapolis?
I agree. That's why I posted a follow up comment already. I also don't consider your two presented options to be the only two options available. Acknowledging that there are flaws and finding arguments against having done something does not mean that I oppose what was done. It just means that I have a better understanding of an outcome with mixed results than I used to have. Perhaps learning from what happened means we can do better next time.

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Re: U.S. Bank Stadium Construction Updates

Postby EOst » September 14th, 2016, 9:21 am

VikingFaninMaryland wrote:I've sat in meetings on Capitol Hill
Uh huh

mplsjaromir
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Re: U.S. Bank Stadium Construction Updates

Postby mplsjaromir » September 14th, 2016, 9:38 am

EOst wrote:
VikingFaninMaryland wrote:I've sat in meetings on Capitol Hill
Uh huh
"My uncle works at Nintendo and I get to play the games before they come out"

karlshea
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Re: U.S. Bank Stadium Construction Updates

Postby karlshea » September 14th, 2016, 10:15 am

mplsjaromir wrote:
EOst wrote:
VikingFaninMaryland wrote:I've sat in meetings on Capitol Hill
Uh huh
"My uncle works at Nintendo and I get to play the games before they come out"
Bad one to quote, one time that turned out to actually be true:

https://quarterly.camposanto.com/my-unc ... 87d64509e9
I recognized another handle of my nephew’s in the list — somewhere above ‘Papa John,’ ‘Guy Fieri’,’ and ‘GuyFieri’ — and lost my mind. Nobody could believe I was the uncle. Least of all me.

BoredAgain
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Re: U.S. Bank Stadium Construction Updates

Postby BoredAgain » September 14th, 2016, 10:33 am

mplsjaromir wrote:
EOst wrote:
VikingFaninMaryland wrote:I've sat in meetings on Capitol Hill
Uh huh
"My uncle works at Nintendo and I get to play the games before they come out"
Why are you questioning this? You may disagree (strongly) with his opinion of funding and stadium backing, but there is absolutely no reason to assume he is a liar. I have no doubt that there have been meetings discussing small and likely irrelevant events associated with Minnesota's Somali community. I also have no doubt that many of those conversations were pointless and have gone nowhere, but some of them have also led to arrests associated with support of terrorism (correctly or incorrectly depends on who you ask).

Off-handedly accusing him of making things up is just childish.

I will further state that talking in an online forum about meetings you have attended on capitol hill about national security/terrorism matters is very poor form if not necessarily illegal.

EOst
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Re: U.S. Bank Stadium

Postby EOst » September 14th, 2016, 11:12 am

- Works in national security
- Attends classified meetings on Capitol Hill
- Spends hours writing essay-length posts sycophantically defending the Vikings from any and all criticism on an obscure internet message board about development in a city he purports to live 900 miles away from

(One of these things is not like the others.)

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Nathan
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Re: U.S. Bank Stadium

Postby Nathan » September 14th, 2016, 11:20 am

I can't think of any better reason for a Vikings fan to live in Maryland. (a suburb of DC maybe? ) than getting a government job and moving there from Minnesota.

How does that not logically pan out for you?

Maybe in the nfl or some sort of sports lobby...

Or event security but still loves his hometown and their team.

There are a few vikings bars in dc... that my friends go to regularly.

Is it weird to think that people actually do security things to people? Is all of our national security a joke/conspiracy to you all?

A close classmate of mine (in my community development program) is a young Somali guy who consults in an action group against radicalism in Islam in Minneapolis, and they meet more than monthly, and he's personally advised president Obama on the situation here. It's not a joke.

kirby96
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Re: U.S. Bank Stadium

Postby kirby96 » September 14th, 2016, 11:37 am

EOst wrote:- Works in national security
- Attends classified meetings on Capitol Hill
- Spends hours writing essay-length posts sycophantically defending the Vikings from any and all criticism on an obscure internet message board about development in a city he purports to live 900 miles away from

(One of these things is not like the others.)
I personally know one guy that could easily fit all those with criteria whom I grew up with in the northern 'burbs. Perhaps VFIM is him. Believe it or not, people who work in national security and go to classified meetings on capital hill are not created in a special factory and sequestered away from all contact with the public when not working on top secret stuff. They actually are a lot like everybody else!

amiller92
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Re: U.S. Bank Stadium Construction Updates

Postby amiller92 » September 14th, 2016, 11:50 am

BoredAgain wrote:I will further state that talking in an online forum about meetings you have attended on capitol hill about national security/terrorism matters is very poor form if not necessarily illegal.
My reaction was more that The Hill is not really where I'd go for real information.

ETA: I'm not sure where you guys got the the "classified" you're adding in, but he did not say classified.

EOst
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Re: U.S. Bank Stadium

Postby EOst » September 14th, 2016, 12:00 pm

Is it possible that VikingsFanInMaryland is exactly who he says he is? Yeah, of course. It's a crazy world out there.

But what he's spouting about Cedar-Riverside is simply racist right-wing conspiracy bullshit. Buildings explode from gas leaks all the time, even (especially!) methane leaks, the idea of which he derided. Investigators have found zero evidence of a bomb. Judicial Watch's FOIA requests found nothing, even though their whole MO is spinning innocuous events into bullshit conspiracies about cover-ups (see: Benghazi, the IRS "scandal", etc.). There's absolutely no (publicly available, I guess) reason for anyone to suspect a bomb except that it happened in a Somali neighborhood, and not a lot of logic behind a cover-up if it were.

Are there people who work in national security and sit in meetings on Capitol Hill discussing bullshit racist conspiracy theories? Probably, yeah, as sad as that is. But there are also plenty of internet trolls who can spout bullshit, too. I don't see any reason to believe one over the other.

VikingFaninMaryland
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Re: U.S. Bank Stadium

Postby VikingFaninMaryland » September 14th, 2016, 11:57 pm

kirby96 wrote:
EOst wrote:- Works in national security
- Attends classified meetings on Capitol Hill
- Spends hours writing essay-length posts sycophantically defending the Vikings from any and all criticism on an obscure internet message board about development in a city he purports to live 900 miles away from

(One of these things is not like the others.)
I personally know one guy that could easily fit all those with criteria whom I grew up with in the northern 'burbs. Perhaps VFIM is him. Believe it or not, people who work in national security and go to classified meetings on capital hill are not created in a special factory and sequestered away from all contact with the public when not working on top secret stuff. They actually are a lot like everybody else!
I don’t sycophantically defend the Wilfs, I think they did what they had to do to keep pro-football in Minnesota and think the unbalanced attacks on them ooze provincial anti-Semitism. At this time, I think the Vikings are the only professional sports franchise in Minnesota actually committed to being a top-tier competitive team in their league. The Wilfs played hardball and they won – boo hoo. They also put up a ton of their own money, are the singular reason why Downtown East emerged from urban purgatory (no team, no public funding), and made the City of Minneapolis and the State of Minnesota better for it. I’m not sure if it's the whininess or petty vindictive venalness that is worse. If you lost that one, chalk it up, grow a pair, and move on.

Living in the DC area where Government is the industry, being on Capitol Hill is what happens here – nobody kisses your ring when meeting with members and committees; most complain when having to go there because there is truly no parking. Me and literally thousands of others in this city do what I noted earlier on a daily basis. There are a lot of people from Minnesota who work in the national security and counter-terror establishments here in Washington, DC, they often spend Sundays, when they can, watching the Vikings at home, at sports bars, and even at some taverns known for favoring the Vikings. I lived in Minnesota, my wife is from Minnesota, and my children were born there. I graduated from the U of Minnesota and went to law school there. My father was heavily involved in urban development in both a governmental and non-Governmental capacity in St. Paul and Minneapolis. He was VP of one of the major construction firms there.

“(One of these things is not like the others.)” Only to a provincial yokel who thinks the State Fair is living large, and was born, lived, and died within 20 miles of a central point would write a comment that revealed such a self-referencing narrowness (and be surprised when someone laughs at it). I’ve been to Viking game get-togethers in Moscow, Warsaw (Poland not Wisconsin), Frankfurt, Delhi, Cairo, Singapore, Tokyo and Doha. I watched Randy Moss’s “welcome to the NFL” game against Green Bay in the very early hours in Gugerat, India in the late 1990s. I watched the North Stars in the Stanley Cups in a bar in Prague (not pronounce like New Prague) in 1991. I may be in the Marriott in Warsaw this fall for a game. Is your idea of being from Minnesota and having an international background that you ate at the International House of Pancakes?

While I do not work for the government today, and never held a GS status, I was at times very heavily involved in counter-terror activities both here and abroad both in a government and consulting capacity. I just returned from Cairo. My familiarity with the subject matter keeps me here as I became an expert - through no fault of my own - in certain aspects of the subject matter, but count the days when I can pull out of the DC area (I also feel it necessary to wait for my daughter to graduate high school). I’ve said nothing that is speculative in the context of open spaces in urban areas regarding counter-terror measures.

As the context makes clear, the counter-terror community I was referring to was the FBI, DHS, and the NCTC. As far as I know, most of them have the same apolitical/low, bipartisan loathing of both parties regardless of what their affinities may have been before coming in. I did not discuss any classified information and did not compromise otherwise “law enforcement sensitive but unclassified” information. Not much classified goes on – on Capitol Hill. Classified stuff take place somewhere else (and there are a lot of “somewhere else” around here).

I did not know that Judicial Watch also submitted requests. To my knowledge, the FOIA activity has not played itself out; its usually a two year process leading to court action. The blast site was demolished before a forensic exam could be done; the explosion of Cedar Riverside is among those “mystery” events that continues to make the PowerPoint briefings of questionable “WFT just happened there” events among professionals in the CT community.

The Somali Community in Minnesota has a high al-Shabab presence (as suggested by another on this list, your local JTTF is hyper-aware of it); Somali delegations making the DC diplomatic rounds in DC routinely complain of terrorists entering their country who transit from Minnesota.

MPLSJAROMIR, aside from the sheer ignorance of your comments, do you have spittle emitting from your mouth when saying them. Your comments don’t begin to frame who I am but they sure say a lot about you. Things are heating up on the domestic front wrt to terrorism and the domestic CT / LE know it. Just ask your local JTTF folks. If you don't know what a JTTF is, stay on the porch.

As my only intention was to explain why such ugly temporary fencing can be thrown up alongside otherwise well designed buildings owing to threat postures, and as this is not the forum to weigh the pros and cons of the war on terror (or whatever else you want to call it), I will suspend my end of this discussion. I come to this "obscure Internet message board" because I love urban design, very much like Minneapolis, and keep track of what is going on there to take my mind off of what is going on here. Lately, however, I've also taken to watching Japanese movies of the Criterion Collection on Hulu. Tonight, its Zatoichi Meets Yojimbo!

EOst
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Re: U.S. Bank Stadium

Postby EOst » September 15th, 2016, 6:49 am

Uh-huh.

BTW, Zatoichi Meets Yojimbo is terrible. Just a cynical attempt to cash in on two beloved characters.


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