Peavey Plaza

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woofner
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Re: Peavey Plaza reconstruction project

Postby woofner » September 19th, 2012, 1:25 pm

I was there at about 1:10, as that is my normal lunching time. Forgot to pee or have sex while I was there, though.
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sushisimo
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Re: Peavey Plaza reconstruction project

Postby sushisimo » September 19th, 2012, 1:43 pm

The lunch-in was odd, if there even was one. I couldn't really tell, except for maybe a couple furtive glances by others who maybe didn't know what to do next either. There weren't any event identifiers to be seen or any way to know who in the plaza was there for the event. I'm not sure what the point was or how an organized message was intended to be sent like this.

Chef
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Re: Peavey Plaza reconstruction project

Postby Chef » September 19th, 2012, 10:22 pm

I would be shocked if homeless people didn't continue to hang out in Peavey Plaza after it was renovated. Why wouldn't they? The lesson of the Gateway Project was that we can't solve social problems by knocking down buildings (or in this case a park).

seanrichardryan
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Re: Peavey Plaza reconstruction project

Postby seanrichardryan » September 20th, 2012, 7:32 am

Exactly
Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

John
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Re: Peavey Plaza reconstruction project

Postby John » September 20th, 2012, 7:48 am

Chef wrote:I would be shocked if homeless people didn't continue to hang out in Peavey Plaza after it was renovated. Why wouldn't they? The lesson of the Gateway Project was that we can't solve social problems by knocking down buildings (or in this case a park).
You are right. There will always be homelessness like prostitution, death, and taxes. However, the social dynamics will dramatically change when both the plaza and Orchestra Hall are renovated. This will be a very bustling cultural center and urban space that will attract a huge amount of activities and events. This summer was an anomaly because both Orchestra Hall and the plaza where basically closed.

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Re: Peavey Plaza reconstruction project

Postby seanrichardryan » September 20th, 2012, 7:59 am

Just like the new bustling Central Library solved all of the problems over there. Last time I was there I watched a man urinate on the front door.
Q. What, what? A. In da butt.

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Re: Peavey Plaza reconstruction project

Postby John » September 20th, 2012, 8:54 am

seanrichardryan wrote:Just like the new bustling Central Library solved all of the problems over there. Last time I was there I watched a man urinate on the front door.
Well, as I said, there will always be homelessness and vagrants. Thats life in the big city. But part of this issue is our community's response to homelessness, antisocial behavior. We are a community of enablers with our many shelters and charities etc, with very few expectations on helping people become more self sufficient and take responsibility for their actions.

mattaudio
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Re: Peavey Plaza reconstruction project

Postby mattaudio » September 20th, 2012, 9:24 am

So wouldn't the solution be to give people access to restrooms instead of rebuilding a historic plaza at great expense with the hopes that people hold their pee and walk across the street to find a place of relief?

dmdhashw
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Re: Peavey Plaza reconstruction project

Postby dmdhashw » September 20th, 2012, 10:44 am

mattaudio wrote:So wouldn't the solution be to give people access to restrooms instead of rebuilding a historic plaza at great expense with the hopes that people hold their pee and walk across the street to find a place of relief?
Or fully fund mental institutions and homeless shelters, so that these people have somewhere else to go? Have police patrol on foot, instead of tool around in their squad cars?

reeckman
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Re: Peavey Plaza reconstruction project

Postby reeckman » September 20th, 2012, 10:47 am

John, this issue is something I think about a lot. Rather than propose to limit or reduce, can we increase control by moving/consolidating certain unnamed buildings or services from a past era to allow for new growth today. It seems the city could invest in itself by funding new improved consolidated facilities in a more relevant area to individuals using them, and make a large area of parking lots say in DTE/EP perceptably more attractive to a substantial tax base of mixed use residential/corporate where biases currently exist. It could be a win-win approach for Minneapolis.

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woofner
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Re: Peavey Plaza reconstruction project

Postby woofner » September 20th, 2012, 11:02 am

Speaking as someone who is more bothered by street corner charity solicitors than homeless people, and as someone who lives a few blocks from Minneapolis' homeless district, I disagree with the strategy of concentrating services into a large facility. I'd rather see all communities in the metro have a target for accommodation of the homeless, with funding penalties if they don't meet the target. Homelessness is not solely an inner city problem, and facilities to assist the homeless should not be concentrated in the city.

Ps Peavey Plaza rox! Target sux!
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Re: Peavey Plaza reconstruction project

Postby reeckman » September 20th, 2012, 11:19 am

I'm surrounded by shelters. When the perceived safety and desirability of an area ripe for development is not high, and several shelters are dispersed over a ~5 by 10 block area with free meals served out of yet another standalone separate building, I'm not sure any serious profitable redevelopment can take place until that is addressed.

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Re: Peavey Plaza reconstruction project

Postby John » September 20th, 2012, 12:21 pm

dmdhashw wrote:Or fully fund mental institutions and homeless shelters, so that these people have somewhere else to go? Have police patrol on foot, instead of tool around in their squad cars?
Excellent suggestions! We need more structured living facilities for people who are homeless or mentally ill. And a higher expectation that people have personal responsibility to maintain respectful behaviors towards themselves and the community if they want help or need assistance.

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Re: Peavey Plaza reconstruction project

Postby FISHMANPET » September 20th, 2012, 9:46 pm

The ones who are mentally ill are likely to not want to use the services made available to them, and I'm not sure there's any way to force them into a home. So they're going to be there no matter what, and no matter what you give them to help them out, they won't make the rational choice, because in a lot of cases they're not rational.

min-chi-cbus
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Re: Peavey Plaza reconstruction project

Postby min-chi-cbus » September 21st, 2012, 10:42 am

FISHMANPET wrote:The ones who are mentally ill are likely to not want to use the services made available to them, and I'm not sure there's any way to force them into a home. So they're going to be there no matter what, and no matter what you give them to help them out, they won't make the rational choice, because in a lot of cases they're not rational.
That's true (I hear), there's always that element who WANT to be on the street (don't understand that one myself).

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Re: Peavey Plaza reconstruction project

Postby spearson » October 18th, 2012, 1:22 pm

From this link (http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/meeting ... S1P-099421). Apologies if this doesn't paste correctly.

Here is the City Council's Findings of Fact on the Plaza, an interesting read:

1. The applicant is seeking approval of the demolition of Peavey Plaza in order to rebuild the plaza
area as a new, more cost effective, code compliant, and contemporary public gathering space
that better supports the event use that Peavey Plaza has come to accommodate.
2. Peavey Plaza is not an individually designated historic landmark, nor does it lie within a
recognized historic district.
3. Peavey Plaza has not been studied by the City for historic preservation designation, but the City
Planning Department made a preliminary determination that Peavey Plaza may be a “historic
resource” that could potentially qualify for such designation. MCO § 599.110 (historic resource
defined as “[a] property that is believed to have historical, cultural, architectural,
archaeological or engineering significance and to meet at least one of the criteria for designation
as a landmark or historic district as provided in this chapter.”)
4. Therefore, it is necessary for the applicant to apply to the HPC for review and approval of its
demolition plans.
5. Pursuant to§ 599.480(a) of the City’s Heritage Preservation Ordinance, a request for demolition
approval shall be granted if it is determined that a property is not a historic resource. Even if a
property is determined to be a historic resource; however, demolition approval may be granted if 2
a finding is made that there are “no reasonable alternatives to the demolition.” MCO §
599.480(b). Similarly, even property that has historic designation may be demolished if there are
“no reasonable alternatives to the destruction.” MCO § 599.350(b).
6. Restoration of Peavey Plaza is not feasible. The plaza has already been materially altered from
its original design in several areas, compromising the architectural integrity of the original
design. Modifications include the complete replacement of all grass areas with paving, changes
to plumbing systems for the water features, and the replacement of planter beds with pre-cast
concrete modular retaining wall systems in areas along Nicollet Mall and 12
th
Street.
7. Peavey Plaza is functionally obsolete, and it is not economically feasible to replicate the current
design. The City does not have adequate local public funding to comprehensively repair,
modernize, or replicate the current plaza design.
8. Private donors and/or outside funding sources have indicated a willingness to contribute
financially to the construction of a new Peavey Plaza if tangible improvements to serve current
public needs are provided in the new design.
9. Peavey Plaza was built primarily with concrete. The concrete is spalling and rebar is exposed.
The concrete’s deficiencies cannot be repaired.
10. Peavey Plaza could not legally be built today because it is a public facility and is inaccessible per
the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA). Making it accessible would require a ramp
of over 200 feet in length that would take up a significant amount of space. Such a ramp would
fundamentally alter the original design, and still would not offer disabled persons dignified,
equal access to the plaza.
11. Members of the disabled community have confirmed that Peavey Plaza’s current design does not
provide disabled persons with equal access to the facility itself, or to public programs offered at
the facility.
12. Peavey Plaza’s storm water management systems are not code compliant and require complete
replacement at significant expense.
13. Peavey Plaza’s current design with “hidden” spaces and corners contributes to nuisance activity
and crime.
14. Peavey Plaza’s current design does not meet guidelines set forth by Crime Prevention Through
Environmental Design.
15. Owners and operators of property located adjacent to or near Peavey Plaza have reported crime
and ongoing unsavory or illicit activity taking place on the plaza, all of which can be attributed
to the plaza’s sunken design and hidden areas.
16. The city cannot address the Plaza’s public safety and accessibility concerns in a financially
feasible and sustainable way.
17. Peavey Plaza’s sunken design with large steps and drop-offs contributes to accidents and
personal injuries.
18. Peavey Plaza’s sunken design with large steps does not allow for the movement of vehicles and
equipment into the lower level, thus increasing operating and maintenance costs.
19. Peavey Plaza’s sunken design with large steps does not lend itself to serving as a venue for public
events.
20. Peavey Plaza’s design offers poor access for electrical systems.
21. Peavey Plaza’s plumbing systems supporting the water features have failed and require
replacement. Two of the three original pumps are broken, the cast iron piping buried
underground and in concrete foundations has rusted, and some pipes are clogged. Replacement
parts for the public are no longer available.
22. Correction of the issues noted above would require the disturbance of the majority of Peavey
Plaza and replacement of the original features with new construction at significant expense. The
result would be the replacement of Peavey Plaza with a facsimile of the original design that
would be more costly than the proposed new design. 3
23. Necessary maintenance of Peavey Plaza in its current state would require a capital expenditure
that the city cannot currently fund.
24. Comprehensive restoration of Peavey Plaza cannot be achieved without demolition or destruction
of existing plaza structures.
25. Even if Peavey Plaza were replaced with a facsimile of the current design, the new plaza would
remain functionally obsolete, inaccessible, and prone to safety issues that are inherent to the
design.
26. Replacement or replication of Peavey Plaza using the current design would still necessitate a
demolition permit and destruction of the exiting plaza.
27. Peavey Plaza is costly to operate and generates little income to cover these costs. The city’s
Public Works Department maintains the plaza and annual maintenance costs have ranged from
$176-284 thousand dollars per year during the last seven years.
28. A new design for the plaza area will correct the foregoing deficiencies and provide a space that is
safe, easily accessible to all members of the public, sustainable, economical to operate, and that
will support income generating events and activities.
29. There are no reasonable alternatives to demolition or destruction of Peavey Plaza.
This action of the City Council became effective when it was subsequently ratified by the Mayor and
published in Finance & Commerce; thus representing the official decision of the City.

MNdible
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Re: Peavey Plaza reconstruction project

Postby MNdible » October 18th, 2012, 1:34 pm

It's amazing how City Staff can come up with the findings when they're told in advance what the answer is.

Lancestar2

Re: Peavey Plaza reconstruction project

Postby Lancestar2 » October 18th, 2012, 9:51 pm

perhaps we should move this conversation to a brand new thread like Downtown Homelessness?

But getting back on topic I think Peavey Plaza will be more successful in attracting more visitors although I think a lot of them will be coming from the OH next door. Also my guess one of the higher ups in the city will give the order to start policing the Plaza once it is redone. Not that they weren't before but my guess they will be much more involved in cleaning out the unwanted people. I still don't like the design as much as what we will be losing but we always can't win on everything.

Also I would agree it would be nice if their was a public restroom around this area. I doubt public restrooms would solve homelessness peeing as like they say you can't teach a old dog new tricks it just may not be realistic to retrain everybody.

John
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Re: Peavey Plaza reconstruction project

Postby John » October 19th, 2012, 12:38 am

I just have to laugh at the comments about how the old plaza attracted nuisance crimes, loitering, ect due to its 'hidden spaces". I can't wait to see all the vagrants hanging out on that very open and visible new pergola that will run along Nicollet Mall! Sounds like it will be the perfect replacement for the bench outside of Target. lol!

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Le Sueur
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Re: Peavey Plaza reconstruction project

Postby Le Sueur » October 19th, 2012, 2:38 am

Lancestar2 wrote:I doubt public restrooms would solve homelessness peeing.
Everyone would go there if we made ourselves one of these:
http://blog.bryantpark.org/2011/10/brya ... -news.html
John wrote:I just have to laugh at the comments about how the old plaza attracted nuisance crimes, loitering, ect due to its 'hidden spaces".
Glad someone else sees the humor in parks creating homelessness.

I know there's nothing sexy about preserving an old plaza, but I can't help feeling people may miss this once it's gone. Didn't someone once say something once about history, learning and repeating something?


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